Dr. Bill Lennon, Clinical Director, Bellevue Community Services, 1200 112th Ave NE. Suite C-160, Bellevue (206) 454-0616

A month after Paul's arrest, he was still uncertain about whether or not he had abused his family or that he had allowed them to be abused by others. He was following the methods that had been presented to him by Dr. Peterson and the interrogators, in good faith that they would restore real memories. Christian family counselor Bill Lennon was hired by Paul to get some additional confirmation about recovering repressed memories. This tape was made by Lennon, and retained by him for his own records in keeping with the confidentiality standards for personal counseling. Lennon did not have a PhD in psychology, he had a doctorate in education, an EdD. At the appeal court hearing in February 1990, Dr. Lennon testified against Paul. The tape was obtained by Paul's attorney Monte Hestor who introduced it into evidence. He pointed out that what was contained in the tape was inconsistent with what Lennon was saying as a witness for the prosecution.

The meeting between Lennon and Ingram:

(Paul is trying to explain the process of getting the memory and the emotion out in order to protect his family---)

Paul: I knew I could get an attorney that would have told me not to talk, but I felt that these things needed to come out. I'd rather have an attorney who gave me Christian advice rather than just trying to get me off. There's no way I want to put my kids through a trial. In fact, I don't know how to say this, but knowing my girls and the problems they're having I think I probably could have figured out that they never could testify at least not in a short period of time, that it would take a long time for them to get this stuff out, emotionally, as emotional as this is, it's hard for them to get the information out and to ever testify. It would be real difficult for them to do that.

Lennon: What is happening for them? Are they are in counseling?

Paul: Right. One of them is seeing somebody at Safeplace. I'm not sure who the older one is seeing, but they're dealing with people through the church and that type of thing, that have worked with these kind of problems before. And of course I've had no contact at all with them and neither has my wife.

Lennon: And your pastor? (Pastor John Bratun) That church, you've been there..

Paul: Almost ten years now.

Lennon: And he has seemed to be somewhat knowledgeable?

Paul: Yes. He..I don't know what day it was. It was after a weekend. No. It was the first week. They wanted more stuff and I just wasn't getting it. I told him I thought I had a demon in me that was keeping me from doing this, and he said not a demon but he did deliver me from several spirits. I actually kind of vomited out and that day I was able to get some real good information on a situation with my friend and one of the defendants in this. But then all weekend long I was by myself in that cell downstairs and trying to come up with some things and it didn't take too long for that hardness of that shell to come back over me. But I came up with some information that my wife was also a victim with these guys, and John helped me to see that. It was something I really didn't want to look at.

Lennon: How do you feel right now? How do you feel with me?

Paul: I don't have a problem with you. But I still have... The conscious part of me wants to get on with this but it's almost like there's a shell. I can't feel emotion where my family's concerned and I'm not doing a real good job of getting into my unconscious. I've come up with maybe a half a dozen scenarios for them. It takes me quite a while to.. . The information doesn't all just pour out. I have to go back and write it down and go back into it again and talk about it and go back into it to really get all the information.

I gave this information from a situation in 1986 where two of the defendants tied up my daughter and raped her, a bondage like situation. And I can't... When I see it, I see myself as being an unwilling participant in all this. One of the persons had a gun and I kept seeing a person behind me or feeling a person behind me but I couldn't bring that person out. And then night before last or yesterday I'd just been praying. And I'd done two things. I'd asked the lord....First of all I'd visualized that my unconscious mind is open, that I can get anything out of there that I want to, like you turned on the light in the storeroom. Okay? The other thing I've done is I try to take Jesus, and when I go into the situation take him in there with me. So if there's something that I can't see... And they don't like me to use these terms, but I ask him to show me a face or to let me hear or to let me see. And that's helped but I'm still you know just really struggling to get information out.

Anyway, the one situation that I had asked for a face of the person behind me actually happened in '84 and I got a picture of a face of one of the other people that works up here, one of our sergeants, but I can't ..all I have is a face. I don't have him doing anything or participating. I heard somebody say: Punish her. Punish her. And my daughter's going through this. But I don't know if it was him or somebody else.

Another situation I gave them was in '86. When I'd first seen it, my wife was being raped by one of these men and I could see somebody... She was on the floor but somebody was on the bed. I thought I saw somebody on the bed and then nothing came to me so I gave them a pretty in depth statement and then again yesterday I went back through this situation and came up with a participant and one of my daughters in our bedroom. I don't know what my activity is here. I see that while my wife is being orally abused by the one man there. She's orally stimulating him while he's orally stimulating... he's kneeling over her, that somebody probably myself is having anal sex with this guy. I don't like to admit that. I don't like to think I would do something like that but there's nobody else in the room. I know that's happening and if I'm looking at it from the third person I can see somebody doing that. I have a hard time putting myself in the first person doing that with him. I admit it that it's happened but I still don't like to see that it was me, that I'd like to see somebody else in that picture I guess.

Lennon: Paul. What do you know that you did? What do you know that you have to deal with?

Paul: Okay. Logically, this is dealing with my conscious mind, I know that I have had incest or rape or sodomy with my two daughters and my two sons. When I get into the unconscious I can't see myself doing that. I can't put faces on my kids. I can identify them but I cannot put the picture of their face in that situation. I was able to put my wife into a situation, put her face in it in two situations.

Lennon: ...How do you know that you that did these things? You said I know that I had incest, rape, sodomy with my two daughters, my two sons.

Paul: Because they said that it happened. And I know that my kids aren't lying about that. So logically I know that's happened.

Lennon: And how do you know they've said that it happened. How did you get that information?

Paul: Well, the week before Thanksgiving we were getting ready to go on vacation and my oldest daughter wanted to meet with my wife. My daughter was with another woman. They met with my wife on Sunday night and told her that I had been abusing her since she was five years old.

Paul: Sandy came home and accused me of that and I said hey I don't touch these girls. In my mind I knew that we weren't close. My kids, for a number of years and I have not been able to get close to them. I have a hard time hugging them. They have a hard time hugging me, that kind of thing. And we can't have a real in depth discussion. But I said, hey there's no way. Consciously I knew that nothing had happened and then the next morning Sandy, my wife...

Lennon: Which Daughter said this?

Paul: This was Ericka. She's twenty..

Lennon: I'd better get the players. Ericka?

Paul: Ericka is 22. She was born in 1965. Julie is 18 and Chad is 20. And Paul Jr. is 23. And we have a nine year old son Mark, and so far, they talked to him and we're just believing that he hasn't been involved, but I'm prepared for the worst that he could be somehow or other. But I'm a lot closer to Mark than any of the other kids.

Lennon: Ericka came...

Paul: ...and met Sandy and accused me of abusing her since she was five years old. I denied it of course. And then the next morning Sandy got a call ....Julie. They both moved out of the house. Ericka moved out in September and Julie in October. And actually Julie moved out the first week of November. I'd gone back to Washington DC for a conference and Julie moved out of the house that week that I was gone.

That's another thing that told me that there were problems here. There's a lot of logical things that have happened over the years that have led me to believe that these things have happened. That they're not lying. The kids don't lie. They just don't do that, but...

Lennon: Do you?

Paul: Consciously no, but unconsciously I have to. If you understand what I'm saying? Consciously I look at myself as a very moral person, a Christian, don't lie, go out of my way... I've been a police officer for 17 years and if I get on the stand, if I couldn't remember something I'd say it rather than trying..

Lennon: (taking notes) Paul had abused..

Lennon: Do you think Sandy knew anything about any of this? Consciously or unconsciously?

Paul: Unconsciously, yes, I think that she was involved. Somehow or another and I think it's through a witchcraft situation, I'm not sure. In about 1975 the abuse started with three other people, three other men.

Lennon: These are the men that are arrested?

Paul: Right. Two are arrested. One is not in custody but he's been talked to. He refused a lie detector.

(They discuss polygraph, Paul has not taken one. They discuss the MMPI tests which Paul has taken for Peterson. Lennon says he wants Paul to take three tests also. They discuss the tests.).

Paul:.....I want to get this all out. It's very frustrating for me not to be able to get into that unconscious and bring it all out.

Paul describes how he made the transition from catholicism to joining Evergreen Christian Center.

Lennon: And that's where you're still...?

Paul: No, we're going to Living Water now , a Foursquare Church

(What follows is summary, not verbatim transcript) .. There's another thing that happened, about 70 or 71, I started having an affair with a woman I had worked with. It was on again off again. It wasn't fulfilling for either one of us, but for some reason we could never really let go. I didn't tell my wife about this until a couple weeks ago. I always thought she suspected it. She claims that she never did. In the unconscious mind she may have known about it. I don't know.

Anyway I quit going to church in the mid-seventies. Ray Risch and Jim Rabie and Gary Edwards were three people that I palled around with about this time. He was a mechanic and did body work. I introduced Ray to Jim. Gary Edwards was a reserve with us. He used to ride with me. He and his wife moved a mobile home in on our property. So we were pretty close around this time. Ray was married and started having an affair with a woman by the name of Dana.

Paul: (verbatim) Dana was one of these free thinkers. She believed that utopia was a place where the only laws were that you didn't hurt anybody else. You could do anything you wanted as long as you didn't hurt anybody else. And at that time that kind of sounded good to me. For some reason it made sense. Dana also wore a ring in the shape of a serpent, a silver snake ring on one hand. I have a hard time recalling it, but there was some kind of witchcraft or something involved here, some kind of a cult activity. And I believe that it may have happened..

Ray and Dana came to our house one day. Sandy was a new Christian. This was before I was a Christian at all and saw this ring and thought well that's...somethings wrong there , so she started praying for Dana. Dana was talking to me. We were sitting at a table. Sandy said that while Dana was talking and looking at me she could feel Dana looking at her across the table and just boring in on her. Sandy said it scared her so she quit praying. I just, my mind tells me that for some reason I was targeted and that I was vulnerable. Things come to mind like as long as it feels good it's okay. You can justify all this stuff through this activity. There was some kind of a ritual. There may have been.. I think it was a cat but I also see a doll and my pastor said it could even have been a baby, that there was a sacrifice of some kind. The reward, if you will call it that, was sex with Dana. She was a very appealing woman. To me, at that time that may have been something I was looking for. It also seemed to me that there was a contract between myself and maybe these other three guys or whoever that was signed. It was secret that you never revealed any of this stuff. The penalty is death. That may have been some kind of a hold. There may have been..But it seems to me that it was more than a contract. Either somebody was sacrificed or we were given the impression that something was. And that's maybe the hold that we had on each other.

These other guys, when they talked to the detectives also said a lot of the same things I did about a dark side, that's what I called it when I first got into my unconcsious was a dark side. They said well maybe we killed somebody. All of them talked about the same thing, that maybe we killed somebody that so it very well may be how we got into it.

Lennon: Can you remember sex with Dana?

Paul: Yes, I can and I don't know how to say this, to say it right, I...

Lennon: Just say it any way you want.

Paul: Okay, well I can visualize myself going through this sacrifice. I have to be careful. One of the questions I always ask myself is how much of this is imagination, or how much of this is really true? So I'm believing that this is true that I'm not putting my imagination in. They have a get together. There are several people there, how many I have no idea, but more than myself and the two that may have come with us. I believe Ray and Gary are involved in this. I don't think Jim is at this point. I believe that they have fiddle music going and I believe there may have been a little bit of dancing, like hillbilly type music, and that kind of thing. I can see maybe Dana dancing in a blue denim outfit of some kind, short skirt, that kind of thing. And then there's a ritual and I am given a knife and told... There's a cat that's kind of spread eagled and tied down and I'm supposed to kill this thing. And the way I kill it is I gut it, and then somebody else...

Lennon: It's alive?

Paul: It's alive and this thing's screaming or the fiddle's screaming or something goes on. I go ahead and do that and somebody else takes the heart out They cut it out or whatever and put it on a knife and give this heart to Dana. I believe that she actually takes a bite of this thing. I don't like...And I believe that they also caught some of the blood in a cup. I don't like to think I would do that. I didn't see myself drinking the blood or eating part of the heart. But then as for doing this my reward is having sex with Dana and she takes me into the house and..

Lennon: House means different from that room?

Paul: This was done outside, there's like fire. It's in the open. It's outside. ...and takes me into the house and she tells me what she wants me to do and stimulates me and then I have intercourse with her. I...My thinking is that there's more than one of these ceremony type things, that there's other people involved, they happen on, I don't know if it's a regular basis, but at various locations or whatever. I've seen two or three locations but I have a real hard time getting into any of these things. This particular scenario there I put it in about three different locations before I was really able to tie it down to anything and I don't know if the detectives have been able to check up on the location I gave them or not. I don't know if they're buying the witchcraft thing, but the pastor seems to think that it makes a lot of sense, that the bondage, and how did three or four of us get together and abuse my kids. That's just something you don't say: hey, how would you like to come over tonight and we'll play with my daughters. Something had to tie us together, so..

Lennon: Paul, one of the problems may be, and I don't know quite to shift my role from interviewer to therapist, and I don't even know if I'm even going to be your therapist. I'm not quite sure where all that is. But at any rate, I'm going to say this to you for a particular purpose and the particular purpose is to help me get more information from you and to give you one more possibility how to hold yourself together, because you strike me as a person right now who has an intellectual hold on yourself as long as you keep this separated.

Paul: Mmm hmm. (Throughout the following, Paul responds similarly. His tone of voice conveys recognition. This makes sense to him)

Lennon: If it comes too close together it may be, what your system is telling you, that that's too much. It can't handle that. If I keep it up like this I can work with it, but if I bring it too close together...

Paul: ...it scares me

Lennon: That may be too much for me to handle. That's okay. So that you know that I know. We both know that already. I just wanted to put words to that. That's not right or wrong. That's what is. That often happens here. To me, that... I'm not a detective. I'm not in the police business. And right now I'm not worried about you hurting children. Okay? So that's not where my energy is at all. My energy is to try to get a sense of how you're working and what your process is, and that would be very different if I was concerned right now that we do all this and then tonight you might do something to a child. I'm not worried about that because you're going to be here. I don't have to deal with that issue.

One of the processes that we've learned that people often do, assuming the witchcraft is all there. I don't have any problem buying that. It doesn't make me more believe you or less believe you. What I would suspect the detective part of you knows, intuitively, or that the police officer part of you, is that these other police officers don't want to accept any of the witchcraft business because that may be an excuse as to this is why I did it. And that's not really our issue. Do you follow what I'm saying?

Paul: I do, right

Lennon: So that's not our issue. I'm not concerned to prove whether there was witchcraft or not. Having said all that, one of the things that has held people in bondage, and it's a trick, the whole thing is a trick. Not that there aren't children that are sacrificed. There are. One of the things that has held people in bondage is to put people beyond their sensibilities with an overload of ritual and an overload of sexuality and stretch them, not so far beyond that they quit, but beyond what they can handle and they're swimming in sense, in their emotions. And then to make a move, for instance to sacrifice the cat and then simulate the same thing with a baby and not necessarily use a baby child, but use a doll but work it in such a way that they've got you trapped. They've got you in bondage because you think, my gosh, what if I did that to a child, which moves to I did that to a child, which moves to I have committed this murder and therefore I must stay within this secret group.

Paul: Right

Lennon: Now I am not even going to pretend to say that I have a real idea of whether you took the heart out of a child or not. I do not know that. That's not my issue right now. I want you to have two things from my little piece of interchange right now. I want you to have some sense that, hmm! He knows a little bit about this stuff. He's heard some of this stuff before.

Number two, I want you to have a sense that it doesn't frighten me or make me not able to work with it.

And three, I want you to know that one possibility is, other than the fact that you took the heart out of a baby, is that part of the scam was, which is at less risk for the people who are setting it up, to work it in such a way that in your own mind you confused those things and in reality you killed a baby doll, rather than a child.

You heard me say, but I want to say it one more time, there may have been a child involved, but lots of times there's not. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Paul: I understand and I don't know if it was Doctor Peterson or the pastor said that same thing, and they say what you see is the reality. What I saw was a cat and then a doll. And they say that is probably the reality but that they're playing mental games, for lack of a better term, with you, in doing this.

But there still...it is like there's a bondage holding me.

Lennon: Oh, sure

Paul: I've been delivered from the spirits, and I keep praying... That the spirits may be gone, you know, that's taken away. But I'm still struggling with all this and I guess that's what makes it so, and then the fact that I can't have any remorse, you know. There's been some, but...

Lennon: What I need to tell you, and I need to touch you to say this. What I need to tell you is that already I can say from a half hour with you, that... And I think we can get past this. I'm not questioning that we can get past this. But, If you were to be in great pain with cancer and you were to be hooked up to a machine and you could moderate the amount of medication that came in...that's the way they do it in hospitals now.

Paul: Right

Lennon: ...so that a certain amount of pain came and you could bring a certain amount of pain killer, you could control your own system. What I'm getting a sense of you now is saying this kind of separation that I'm doing is my way of being able to handle as much as I can handle. I don't look at that as a scam. I don't look at you as crazy. I do look at you as being pretty fragile. I'm going to handle you pretty gently. Because the messages I'm getting from you are that there's a part of me that wants to deal with this. There's a bigger part of me that doesn't want to deal with this. And I'm not talking about getting information out for these other people. We're talking about if we flood you with...If somehow, oh let's get extreme, we brought in pictures of, or a whole bunch of the other guys broke denial and brought in all kinds of stuff and we flooded you with stuff one of the risks is that it would be just an overload.

I think what you're saying to me in a lot of ways is I'm not going very fast and I want to go faster. But my system is saying this is about as fast as I can go. Do you follow me?

Paul: Yeah

Lennon: I need to respect that system and the very fact that I respect that system and communicate that to you may help you then be able to bust through some of it with me. Do you follow me?

Paul: That's what I think I did with John, is he worked with me one step at a time to kind of peel a layer off at a time. But it still seems awful slow.

Lennon: And it's awful slow because...Well, There's two whole issues. It's either awful slow because there's only so much that you want to give, and I don't want to get caught ya,da,da... And/or it's awful slow because your system can't handle this. You built a system psychologically that you could work with, I think. We're not here to hear me talk. I'm interested in your reaction to what I've just said back to you.

(Sound quality on the audiotape gets worse)

Paul: Well, what I've been is I've really been in a lot of prayer you know asking the lord to deal with me here and get this stuff out. If I read Psalm, I think it's 37, it says: "Wait for the Lord." Well, I believe that. However, how long do you be patient? And Pastor John says well, we need to be moving faster. (unintelligible) When we started coming out with some of the garbage that had gone on and he delivered me from the spirits that I had, he wasn't upset but Dr. Peterson was just flabbergasted at what was happening. In fact, he started carrying a rosary because he was afraid of what he had seen here. And they talked about it. Pastor John said, well hey,( unintelligible)

Doctor Peterson said: How do you deal with it? Pastor John says: It's a sin. You know, one sin is the same as another as far as the Lord is concerned.

Lennon: Doctor Peterson has talked to John?

Paul: Right. John is my pastor. He also is a chaplain here.

Lennon: Oh, that's a piece that I didn't know.

Paul: Right, and in fact, I was in charge of the chaplain program when we put it all together years ago.

That (unintelligible) doesn't it.

Paul: It certainly does. It's a strange world. But, I do need to get it out. (unintelligible) Something will come up and I'll kind of draw back and say that can't be right. And then it takes me awhile to get back into it, you know where if I just ...

Lennon: The last piece that I want to say, and then I want to get some more history, is that when you say I'm not into the remorse, for you to get into the remorse is to get into more of the reality. And there's a whole lot of you saying Phew, I don't know if I can handle that. You absolutely have to get into the remorse. There's no question about that, but...

Paul: It will come as we..

Lennon: Well It will come as fast as you can handle it, assuming that you're willing to go with it. And that's all I can tell you. Anyway enough of hearing me talk.

They talk for half an hour about Paul's personal history, details of his visualizations and therapy options for him and his family. They run through questions on sexual addiction screening test. It's a strange process that doesn't fit Paul's current situation. Paul doesn't know how to answer some questions. He makes a distinction to prior to 1975 when he became a Christian, and prior to a month ago when he learned about charges of sexual abuse. Also between the time before he was delivered of the spirits and since then.

Lennon repeats the question asking prior to a month ago for each question. Paul asks is this dealing with conscious or unconscious mind.

Lennon specifies, how would you have answered these questions if you were asked prior to a month ago. Paul answers all questions no.

Tape two recorded following day, December 29. Lennon asks Paul to give a chronology of sexual abuse, beginning with the most recent and going backwards.

This is a summary of Paul's reply: Detectives say I've been charged with rape of my youngest daughter in October. I don't recall that. In September Jim came over, describes something about selling a car to Ericka. They say I threatened her. I don't remember that. Going back the only one I remember is June of 1986, Ray and Jim and Gary Edwards.(This is not Sheriff Gary Edwards but a deputy with the same name.) Did I tell you this one yesterday? (Lennon:Yes you did.) Prior to that, 1984, I recall campaign signs outside. Prior to that, 1983. Jim Rabie came over and had anal sex with Chad. There was a gun in that one also. Then in 1981 the situation with Ray and Dana and I and the young boy. Before that with Julie I think it was house on 83rd but I think she was developed too much. Ray, Jim, Gary, bondage, hogtied. 1975 the first incident I can recall Gary, Ray, Jim and myself. They offered me a gun and three choices. Sex with Julie. There has to be more. The girls say there's a lot of activity, a couple of times a week. This fellow Archie, I don't know if he was involved with us but he apparently molested both of the girls, but there was no corroboration and we had to drop the charges. I don't know if he's involved with our group. At one time I thought I saw him but it was a fleeting thing.

Lennon: In between these seven incidents are the pieces you're looking for now?

There's also a situation where Sandy was made the victim, late '75 or early '76.

What do you think is going to happen to you?

At first they said if only you cooperate, so I cooperated but they thought I was holding back. In trying to be truthful I told them about a situation in Seattle but I don't know if my imagination has a claim here or not. They checked it out but it didn't check out. My description had a construction shed at night in Seattle and I see a big set of blueprints. There's a woman lying on the floor. She has a green dress. It's not a sexy dress. She had on black shoes. It tied my stomach up in a knot. I went back myself, at first I thought it was early 80's parking lot had a slope and construction shed was on the edge of it. Area of Seattle that's near airport. ...several minutes of detail of his recollection.. I tried to go back to that but I can't get anything and one time I see her getting up and walking off. Paul talks about sense of betrayal by colleagues when he tries to cooperate but when they go up for arraignment, they raise the bail. (Very bad audio quality) End of tape.

In Dr. Lennon's written evaluation of Paul he describes a "dual ego state, with disassociation which is both extreme and highly functional." A high risk to move into the "long conditioned other" if released. Prognosis for outpatient therapy is nil.

In the appeal hearing February ,1990, Dr. Lennon indicated that since Paul would not acknowledge his guilt, he was a poor candidate for therapy and was too dangerous to be at large.