This text represents parts 4& 5 in an interview originally initiated [almost 2 years ago,] for DMZ magazine, then scheduled for inclusion in the [single] "Merger" issue of DAMn! [#15] Following are the most recent topics discussed & seeing how we last visited this dark­electro act in late 1995, we thought it was "time:"

Sung: How did the new album [E.I.D.A.G.] turn out? Are you satisfied with it?

L9: I'm pretty satisfied with it...there comes a time you just have to let it go, or you NEVER will.
vM: The album turned out very well. I think it's one of our best products yet. As is always the case, there are little things... If we created the perfect record, we could never top it, so we consistently strive to better ourselves.

Sung: You say it's one of your "best products yet"? Is there ever any conflict or feeling of compromise selling your music or have you already come to terms with music being a business?

mH: To me, It's always been about "selling music." I mean, it's the only way to get your ideas & art out to the masses, so to speak,... I have no patience for the "sensitive artist" type who makes all this great art (or music) that nobody else ever even knows of. It's like the "Tree That Falls in the Forest" & no one is there to hear it. If you have any issues over "selling out" you should NEVER show ANYONE your art or play ANYONE your music, to begin with!

Sung: Stylistically, how is the new album different from Croc Shop's previous work?

vM: The most obvious difference is the lack of live bass on the tracks. Otherwise, I'd say it is quite similar to the "CrocShop" sound, if you will.
L9: More songs in a "song format," faster tempos, more noise.
mH: I'd have to add, that it's the 1st album we recorded the same way throughout. On all of our previous recordings we'd only take some of the songs into the computer realm, others we'd just record with the sequencers & drum machines into ADat digital recorders & then track live samples on top, then add vox & live bass to that.
For E.I.D.A.G. we were so involved with trading these sound files of loops back & forth on ZIP discs & refining everything, that at one point each track made it into the PowerMac here for the "final" mix-down... Most all the cuts on the cd are like the 7th 'edition' of the song...

Sung: Tell me about the songwriting process? Do you just get tracks from Len and Markus and then rework them or is it more of a collective effort with all of you in the studio together?

mH: Yeh, like I mentioned before, I'd get a disc from either Markus or Len & then sort of compile it all in the SESSION program & sample in the vocals & mixdown here... But, on 2 trax Markus ftp'd me an almost finished "backing" track that I then built on top of,... I don't think there was a single time we were all in the same place for this recording... it was sort of "an isolated collaboration of individual ideas making the whole,'' if you can imagine it...
vM: It's a "virtual studio" kind of thing.

Sung: People from all over the world potentially collaborating to make music while never coming into contact with each other is an interesting concept. Is this "virtual studio" the future of electronic music recording or just something that works for Croc Shop?

mH: Well it has proven to work for us & I can recall at least 2 other cds that I've seen with credits to this effect, so it could definitely lead to a future of music creation. Within this style, of course, I couldn't see a rock band recording this way!

Sung: Was this the most collaborative effort ever on a Crocodile Shop record?

mH: Definitely, with Len we are all thinking along the same lines, on a number of levels, really. It feels like a big weight has been lifted off of our music creation & whole "approach'' to the band, in general.
Where the compositions start from the ground up without having to leave holes in the mix for the sake of a "live bass player," with a somewhat limited style.

Sung: I think it was Van Gogh who said "Good artists copy, great artists steal." Would you agree with that philosophy?

vM: It's a clever saying from a man who had an incredibly original style of painting that really didn't copy or steal from anybody (unless he stole his idea from someone in history we don't know about). Too many artists today either copy or steal other artists' styles, creating very mediocre music.

mH: I'd disagree with Markus & agree with that statement [but wasn't it Picasso who said this?], I definitely steal ideas and I think what it means is to allow yourself to draw inspiration directly, on the spot & not to stifle any of the creative process. I definitely strive to 'acquire' bits from so many disparate sources that the final result is impossible to pinpoint, tho. To "copy" is to imitate, but to "steal," is to take something & make it your own.

L9:Great artists absorb everything around them and mesh it all together under a vision that only they have, therefore it is not imitation, but redirection. If you could take someone's concept and make it better, you deserve the chance without ridicule. You don't see too many bands (smart ones, anyway) trying to copy, say, Kraftwerk or Einsturzende Neubauten...they CANNOT be enhanced...they exist PERFECTLY with NO room for improvement.

Sung: Please explain your love for electronic music. Did you just get tired of the traditional rock'n roll format of music?

L9: No, a place for everything, and everything in it's place. I have a certain fondness (obsession) with order and organization as well as a love of rhythmic noise. The technology fetish is more of a mantra to me than a fetish, but plenty more on that at www.mortmain.com. I guess that would explain the love of electronic music, but I also have a "thing" for early 60's instrumental music, or "surf" if you will. After a week of programming music and whipping it into ORDER, it's nice to hit the studio with the Brimstones (a pet project I am currently working on) and just pound away on a REAL drum kit. No sequencers, no click track, no time code...just raw, primal music.
vM: Electronic music is a modern music that really came to its own in the when first I started listening to music. Its really the music that I grew up with and a style of composing that I understand. Traditional rock has its place the way classical music has its place. It's fun to listen to and sometimes play, but it's the music of the past.
mH: Yes, RockNRoll as we know the term to be used, is definitely a dying art,...& so many bands can be sited as the "killers" of that style. Rock had it's era & some of it is good, but most of the current "rock" bands can't even touch the "classics" so why try? This would be the "Artists" that "copy" from too shallow a Pond when there is a vast Sea of ideas to steal out there... And to go more directly to your question, "Rock N Roll" seems to reject the resources & technology that is currently available in these Modern Times.

Sung: What do you think of the current state of industrial music? Are you comfortable with the direction it's heading?
vM: From what I've been hearing, it seems to be heading back towards the electronic, synth based music; which is definitely a good thing. Industrial really seems to reflect the popular-sound, in that while grunge was pop, a lot of artists went metal-guitar edged. Now that everyone in pop is doing the electro-thing, then its being reflected in industrial as well.
L9: I'm down with the whole synthpop thing coming back, I' GLAD the guitars are leaving, but I am getting tired of the gabberesque element that has been dominating recent releases, you know big, distorted 1-2-3-4's. I would like to see the noise come back, but in an accessible way...don't get me wrong, I really dig this whole power electronics thing, but it's not very energizing.

Sung: How were the tours this past year? How'd the new bass player work out?

L9: The tours were very gratifying. After living in an area where all everyone does is bitch about the lack of a scene or complain endlessly about the one they have, it was great to play places with THRIVING and COOPERATIVE scenes.
mH: Yeah, The tours went well, we did a few gigs with Numb, the Damned, Front 242, Project Pitchfork,... we got on pretty well with them all & the [varied] audience-response was most definitely encouraging... probably some of the biggest crowds we've ever played to as well,... the new bass player Eric (drZ) fit right in - I felt bad for him to have to play all ready written bass lines, although his style was a little different & he has allot of enthusiasm for playing live... we haven't been in contact with him in a while tho; since we've been "off the road" & working on studio­type stuff,....
Despite this, he is on 2 tracks on the new cd... we're not really sure of the next "C/S live" approach right now, we might drop all the previous live bass trappings,... we're formulating our new 'set' as we speak,...

Sung: Do you enjoy playing live more than ever after this past year of touring?

vM: The new line up of Len, Mick and myself is really cohesive. We enjoy playing together and enjoy the touring. We've always liked playing out, but the response in the past two years has just gotten so good that it really helps us to enjoy the process even more.

Sung: Are you three the final line up for Crocodile Shop?

mH: See above! The current lineup feels the most like we're all "playing on the same team," definitely...

Sung: Does Crocodile Shop still have an agenda or manifesto or is it just about writing good music now?

mH: Well, that is a loaded question, since part of our "agenda" has always been about creating good music! & Yes, I'd say we are still as influenced by & willing to embrace "Strong Imagery" as we ever were. And yes, we feel that we are still providing C/S's own vision of a clean, electronic purity. We always look to the future with the continued artistic expression of the collective. Our politics haven't changed, either we are still against Racism, Sexism & Homophobia ­ all outdated, ignorant attitudes. This being said, we don't feel that we have to continue to release the same album over again (Celebrate The Enemy) to accomplish our "mission." Our most successful releases have been the ones where we don't hit people over the head with "political" lyrics & themes, ... but when people dig a little deeper they can see that C/S is still charting the same course as all those releases ago.

It feels like SR have been at it for years now & like many other American Electro-Industrial acts, they still seem to be fighting ­ just to keep their heads above water... DAMn! takes this 2nd opportunity to chat with their personable lead singer Athan, who some say puts a "Face" on the well-produced, adequate electro ­ techno backings created by Matt, who actually started the band all those years ago...

DAMn!: Allot has happened since we last caught up with you guys... Can you bring us up to date a little ?
Well, allot has happened to us! We have toured Europe, put out a few releases, opened for Front 242 a few times, Frontline Assembly a few times, completed a tour of the Northeastern U.S. with Apoptygma Berzerk and late last year released Beat Noir.
DAMn!: How would you compare the fans reaction to SR in Europe to the reaction you get here in the States?
Even though we have a total of four releases available in Europe we are essentially a new band [there]. The Euro crowd is different, because when they are hot, they are really hot! Some cities were more familiar with us than others, of course those were the best shows. Apop have a tremendous following, that along with the fact that not many tours had come through that part of Europe, made that tour somewhat of an event. It was my first tour of Europe, and honestly was one of the best experiences I have ever had.
DAMn!: Considering how long you've been involved in the underground music scene are you happy with the level SR has achieved?
It depends what day of the week you ask me. As you mentioned, I have been at this for awhile, success is a rather subjective matter. Had you told me when I was twenty one, that in a decade I would have my name on fifty cds and would tour the world, I would not have believed you. But upon completing these goals, I also put them behind me once I attained them. Although I consider myself lucky, I really thought that it would somehow mean more. When I say more, I mean in every way. Spahn Ranch is basically the most popular band I have ever been involved with, for what little we have, we have struggled through allot to even get here. Ultimately, where is here? Each record outsells the previous, each tour gets a little better, but it is never and further stretch than that. I guess I have come to the conclusion that we are not destined to be anything more than an underground entity. So in essence, I have what I would have killed for at twenty one, but now that I am there, it is not what I thought it would be.
DAMn! The "midi-ghetto" as it has been called, infrequently gives rise to bands [like the Prodigy,] who have been around allot longer than their 'sudden' success would hint at, any thoughts on this?
Timing!!!! In the case of the Prodigy, I think they had a combo of good songs and an image that put a face on a catch phrase. This kind of thing happens from time to time. Nail a song on a big soundtrack and suddenly a band can explode overnight, or get the right tour or something. Obviously, if you stick around long enough, you increase the chances of that happening.
DAMn!: What would you say to people who comment that the new "direction" of the band is too "drumNbass-heavy" as compared to the previous material?
People are always going to talk, it is inevitable. My partner Matt recently said something that would fit in nicely here. Looking back he commented on how so many people have sighted The Coiled One as their favorite Spahn Ranch album, and it has sold better in the past two years than it did in its first two years. Yet when we released that album, people said they preferred Collateral Damage (our first full-length). Of course, if one of the "saintly" bands from the genre tried experimenting they would be hailed as gods!
DAMn!: Everyone I know thinks that your [Athan] vocals are the strongest & most distinctive element of SR, what was behind the decision to do almost 1/2 of "Beat Noir" as instrumentals ?
Honestly? No comment.
DAMn!: Matt has several dNb side projects right? How do you [Athan] feel about these elements [beats, samples, ragga-vocal bits] playing into the SR material in such abundance? It seems like the 'darker' vocal style is at odds with these elements at times...
I have heard this before, not sure how to respond? I must say that I let Matt do what he wants to do, he in turn runs with it. It takes me a real long time to warm up to "new" kinds of music. So I am not all that fond of some of the latest movements in electronic music. But, in bits and parts I do like it in our music. I tried to sing differently on our new record, in the end I guess it is still the old me...dark as ever.
DAMn!: How do you feel towards people 'categorizing' music in general, Which is to say is it a helpful practice [to steer listeners towards a band with a certain 'sound'] or do you think it harmful [in a way that pigeonholes music] and have you ever even considered with SR just what sort of an outfit you are ?
In the past few years, I have simply been saying that we are an electronic pop band. I do believe earlier on we were far more industrial. I am a little torn on this topic, because I agree with both points of your question, it helps steer the listener, but at the same time has pigeonholed us and keeps us out of certain mags, radio shows and tours. Unfortunately, most of the music industry finds "Industrial" to be rather passe. Of course, you can tell them to f--k off, but they run the show. So f--k you doesn't really do much.
DAMn!: As for the process of producing your material, do the two of you work completely independent of each other ­ with the vocals coming after the song structure or before?
Never quite got used to it, but yes we work separately. The only exception is when the vocals are being laid down. The music is always written first, then Matt gives me a cassette to work from.
DAMn!: How did David J.[Bauhaus] come to be involved with 2 tracks on the new album?
David was doing some remix work for Cleopatra, he and Matt hit it off and Matt asked him to play on our record. It really was that simple.
DAMn!: Do you [Athan] ever contribute to the programming end of things? Or Matt to
the vocals/Lyrics?
Nope! Once in awhile Matt tells me he prefers a title or a phrase, but that is it.
DAMn!: A lot of Electronic-based bands have their own studio set-up, is this the case with SR or do you work with a certain producer ever?
For most of our earlier releases we worked with JLAB studios only. Beat Noir was recorded at a different studio. Matt has a home studio for remixing, but ultimately prefers an outside studio. Vocals are tough to record at his home studio.
DAMn!: Where do you think SR will be in 5 years time?
Considering we have been together for six years at this point, another five would make that eleven years! So I think we will be a part of the past.
DAMn!: Where do you think industrial & goth will be then? - Considering Marilyn Mansion, Hot Topic Mall-Stores, & even Goth-Talk on SNL,... will this style remain the same, continue to grow, or always stay a subculture?
Since this stuff has been around in one shape or form for nearly two decades, I do believe it will be around in five years. I wrote about this in the liner notes in The Black Bible, since it never really ever becomes mainstream, it continues to feed itself. I think with the exception of a band or two, it will remain an underground thing.
DAMn!: How did you get involved with writing & INTERFACE magazine? Can you tell a little about your column in there?
My column in Interface is simply a place where I can bitch about things! Rik Millhouse simply asked me if I would be interested in writing a column, I thought it would be fun. My column allows me to communicate with people on a different level outside of singing. I just really enjoy doing it.
DAMn!: Anything else you'd like to add or talk about? Final thoughts?
There is talk of a tentative U.S. tour this spring, we are thinking about re-releasing our first album Collateral Damage with new art and completely remixed. Cleopatra is allowing me to release a collection of material by my first band Fahrenheit 451, sometime this summer. Outside of that I just want people to go out and buy our f--king album!