17:50:05 - Opening Log
Connecting to wonder.lag.com:9998
Connected via TCP
*** if you attending tonights chat on cults, go to the last room now
?MISS P: We will wait another minute or so and see if more people come
?MISS P: We are all here to talk with our special guest DON
?MISS P: about his 20 years of experience and awareness of cults
?MISS P: and cult related issues
DON: The heavens gate event seems to call for a new look at cults
DON: What are they and what should we think/feel about them
RoLLy & StaC: ok don
RoLLy & StaC: cool
DON: Are they dangerous? Helpful? Should we hate them or flock to them?
DON To me a cult is a group where one leader makes the rules and defines reality for its members.
?MISS P: This is a special Palace event so we can talk about something that is hugely in the media / the news this week
Eric: what makes these people follow?
CyberToonª: To me a cult is where a person can fulfill their dreams of world domination
Tigger (F): I agree don
Tigger (F): but.....
DON What do you mean by world domination?
Tigger (F): a cult has there own beleifs and no one can change it
CyberToonª: Isn't that the whole point of a cult is to gain people's favor?
DON Yes? But why?
CyberToonª: Umm, to gain power and respect?
?MISS P: respect from whom though?
Jeanne®: I worked for a cult outreach group for a while
CyberToonª: from the people within your group
Jeanne®: clerical but learned some :)
curman: from everyone...they want to feel appreciated
DON Does anyone think that people join because they are looking for certainty and security?
Jeanne®: no :)
CyberMatt: yes
MS. P ©: Or is it simply that people are looking for acceptance in general ?
Eric: yes, looking to belong...
Jeanne®: many are secure in their life, actually
Jeanne®: but search for a truth
curman: Yes...but obviously there is something missing...
Jeanne®: they feel they can hold to
simple: :someone say simple?
CyberToonª: I think they joined because of his blank hypnotic stare
CyberMatt: they want acceptance
simple: heheh
curman: they need something/someone to believe in
?MISS P: yes curman
DON Yes what about the search for truth? Why would one want to search for the truth
MS. P ©: But who's truth ?
Jeanne®: human urge to find out why one exists and what is expected from their life
Eric: i'm sure there are many diffrent aspect for joining a cult. Each individual has his or own reason...
CyberMatt: cause they need to have something to believe in
DON Exactly, who's truth?
CyberToonª: The truth is that we as member's of reality will never FIND the truth, that will have to wait until after we're dead
curman: There are many factors...yeah
Jeanne®: one they can identify with
MS. P ©: :no pun intended
DON Is that why the heavens gate folks topped themselves?
Jeanne®: they believed the charismatic, dogmatic leader who manipulated and brainwashed them, yes
?MISS P: to find the truth beyond? Yes isn’t it?
DON To find the truth in a space ship?
CyberToonª: Maybe they thought they were doing their part to lower the population
?MISS P: haha toon
Jeanne®: there are many stages to cultic ideas
Eric: i think the heaven's gate cult leader was a good salesman. He knew how to get people to follows the ways he believed in.
Jeanne®: for example, sun yung moon brainwashes in part as a physical way
Jeanne®: depravation of food, etc. nosª: yep Eric
?MISS P: yes
CyberToonª: With eyes like that, how could you trust him?!
MS. P ©: Actually I read one member say that they (Do & Tee) never really wanted followers
DON No. There are a couple of important things here. Why is this mostly an American phenomenon? And why should people need such answers to their question?
?MISS P: well that to me is hard to understand
Jeanne®: then he (his workers) fills the head full of garbage at a person's moment of mental and physical weakness
DON But could anyone here get their head filled so easily?
CyberToonª: I think Americans are more gullible and the most open to new ideas
Eric: many people crave to learn what is after death.
Jeanne®: because we are made up of so many different cultures
?MISS P: I would like to think not
?MISS P: But I have done a lot of reading on the subject
Jeanne®: i explained, once a deprivation of sorts is made
?MISS P: people have gone in "fully aware" and gotten caught up
curman: of course....that's been man's question since the beginning
MS. P ©: So much of what we think is fed to us, anyway...thru the media, etc. ...
Jeanne®: deprivation of family, physical needs, etc
curman: "why are we here? what happens next"
CyberToonª: The media has just as much influence nowadays as your family
Jeanne®: i was only giving an example of the moonies :) nosª: questions that can't be answered curman
curman: If not more
MS. P ©: I agree Toon....
DON What trouble me is that a lot of people are willing to accept a truth that makes them feel better without examining it
curman: they were not meant to be answered
?MISS P: yes!!!!
Jeanne®: i agree don
Phyl: life after death
Cyberia: but why do they believe what these leaders say is the truth
DON But is there another way to approach the need for truth without following a leader or dying?
Eric: these people in heaven's gate worked their whole life to committ suicide. they believed in what they did was not wrong. who are we to judge them .
CyberMatt: maybe because they are looking for answers
Eric: :besides they were mental
Jeanne®: yes, i agree
Hetha: or leaving behind your loved ones
curman: i agree eric
CyberToonª: hehe, right on Eric!
CyberMatt: most of them were loners in life
curman: for all we know they are correct
?MISS P: For all we know they could be on a space ship in a better place
CyberToonª: For all we know they were wrong
Jeanne®: we learn by judging the actions of others :)
Phyl: I'm not judging them
?MISS P: this is also true=)
Cyberia: we never know
Phyl: they made their choice
Cyberia: but they were led to this choice by brainwashing
DON I wouldn't want to judge them. Its just that I think there might be ways to approach the problem right here in the real world
Jeanne®: to judge the actions of hitler is not wrong..
curman: they were not forced
?MISS P: I agree Jeanne
CyberToonª: They could have died anytime they felt like it, it's not like now was the only time
RoLLy & StaC: hmmmmm
Randi©: why is it a problem?
DON Jeanne please expand your remark
Jeanne®: i was directing a comment towards the subject of "judging"
Eric: not a problem for anyone with a free mind to pick what he or she wants to do
?MISS P: What ways? And what ways that do not somehow evolve into yet another cult?
Jeanne®: it is not wrong to judge actions
Jeanne®: even the Bible says that
Randi©: and who says the bible is right?
MS. P ©: But still there is right and wrong
Phyl: I do
Jeanne®: i do :)
DON The danger of evolving into another cult is always a danger.
Randi©: and that is your choice
CyberToonª: Who wrote the Bible anyway?
Jeanne®: and that is yours :)
Cyberia: another topic toon
Randi©: right
nosª: no ones sure CyberToon
Jeanne®: lol cyberia ..exactly
Cyberia: :next week
MS. P ©: And actions are our only way
Jeanne®: ok :)
?MISS P: hehe
DON What is the relation of a cult to other established religions
RoLLy & StaC: don't you go to sunday school cybie
Cyberia: eh?
CyberToonª: I used to
Jeanne®: a dogmatic leader
RoLLy & StaC: really CT
Jeanne®: a charismatic person
Phyl: yea
Phyl: God
Phyl: yep
Eric: cults that are wrong, are the cults that actaully hurt innocent people who are not involed with the cult that is inficting damage on innocent bystanders
Jeanne®: rules
MS. P ©: Is there a connection ?
Hetha: How can people equate their religion to abandoning family?
Kitty©: 40 men
DON Didn't most religions start out that way?
?MISS P: All early religions were probably seen as cults....
?MISS P: yes
?MISS P: and many churches ask you to give up things
CyberMatt: yes
DON Yes
curman: I'm sure some people consider the major religions of today as somewhat of a cult...
Jeanne®: define a "cult"......
MS. P ©: LIKE $$$$
?MISS P: yes like $$
CyberMatt: agree curm
Hetha: :even children?
Jeanne®: don..define "cult"
?MISS P: Let DON define it
RoLLy & StaC: neither do I
Eric: many churches ask to give up thing that make there bank account grow
curman: If you break it down...
Phyl: thanks jeanne
RoLLy & StaC: oops
CyberToonª: Didn't he already define it?
DON I don't believe that cults start out that way
nosª: the people that call major religions cults don't know what they are about
Phyl: just got here sorry missed it
CyberMatt: but isn't that what makes a cult? if they ask for money?
Eric: how do cults start don?
*** shh
Jeanne®: actually, jesus and the disciples were seen as a "cult" to the Hebrews...
DON They usually start out with someone who really believes he/she has the answer
Jeanne®: define the word "cult"
curman: Yes...define it
Kitty©: oh
Jeanne®: get a webster's :)
DON A religious group that has a leader who is given unfettered authority to define the truth
Kitty©: the truth?
Jeanne®: yes, somewhat
CyberMatt: the answer
Eric: where does this leader usally get his information?
Jeanne®: the truth according to that leader
?MISS P: a perceived truth
Eric: :the internet?
Randi©: cult: a system of religious worship or ritual. 2. devoted attachment to, or admiration for, a person, principle, etc. 3. a group of followers
CyberMatt: yes i have a question
DON Often by some kind of religious experience
Randi©: right out of websters
Hetha: resulting from a vision of sorts?
CyberMatt: do the cult leaders usually believe what they are telling there followers?
?MISS P: an actual religious experience?
DON Yes
Jeanne®: truth is backed up by fact..fact is a theory ganged up on by alot of question..but the truth prevails the question
?MISS P: They actually believe that all the actions and requirements they put upon the followers are correct?
DON I don't understand you, Jeanne
Jeanne®: i thought you understood cults, don
CyberToonª: How can you tell others to believe in something you don't even believe in yourself, that's just wrong
Jeanne®: ever listened to walter martin?
?MISS P: And yet they are not bound by the same rules
nosª: its all for the money
DON Exactly. You can't convince others if you don't believe. but that doesn't make you correct
CyberToonª: Well then they are truly workers of the devil, not god
Eric: money is evil
Phyl: right
Phyl: eric, its the love of money
Randi©: but who is god?
Jeanne®: what cults do you know alot about, Don?
Cyberia: so this guy really believe the spaceship was coming I guess
CyberMatt: yes but where did he get his idea
Cyberia: from Star Trek
Hetha: the bible
CyberMatt: if he made up this next evolution
Jeanne®: evidently, after all, the other 15 cleaned up after the first set
CyberMatt: lol
CyberToonª: For all we know God doesn't even have a brain. he or she is just a beam of light that goes around creating things
CyberMatt: how could he make this stuff up and then convince himself he was right
Eric: what area of cults do you study most about don?
DON One way to approach the questions cultists ask is to keep on asking, to keep on questioning. I was involved in a group called the Emissaries and also Arica
Jeanne®: and what group are you with now, Don?
CyberToonª: Well this is a very expandable subject
Jeanne®: denomination, etc?
DON I ended my involvement when I tried to introduce a process of self-questioning into the group and failed
CyberToonª: On what?
Hetha: You must have usurped the position of the leader
CyberToonª: in your cult?
Jeanne®: much like the jehovah's Witnesses way of thinking, Don
?MISS P: ^If you have a comment or question please put up the ^? sign
DON There was tremendous resistance, not from the top but from many in the rank and file
Jeanne®: ^?
?MISS P: Jeanne? Go ahead
CyberToonª: :How come Don looks so much like John Ritter?
Eric: are drugs involved in most cults?
DON I thought john ritter looked like me
?MISS P: hahaha
DON Not the ones I know about
Hetha: hehe
CyberToonª: He looks EXACTLY like you!
CyberToonª: I thought he was you!
Eric: OIC
Jeanne®: Sorry you misunderstood me, Don..,my question was "what group or denomination are you with now"
MS. P ©: ^?
DON None
RoLLy & StaC: he was
Jeanne®: I meant religious preference
Hetha: :his own
CyberToonª: :so what comes next in this topic?
Phyl: are you atheist or agnostic?
DON My religion these days would be something like a kind of agnostism. I love to enquire deeply into the meaning of me and my world
Jeanne®: agnostic...then how do you know what truth is truth?!?!?
Jeanne®: okey dokey
DON I don't
Hetha: sure, and who needs to join a cult to probe for answers?
CyberMatt: ^?
Jeanne®: i didn't say cult..i was just curious
Phyl: I'm not interested about your deep mean
Phyl: of life thank for your time
Phyl: Good bye Don & God Bless
Jeanne®: lol
DON These days I organize dialogue groups to explore serious issues about the nature of thought, reality, the incoherence in the world and so on
Jeanne®: outta here ya'll :)
CyberToonª: Why did Phyll leave?
?MISS P: hmmmm
?MISS P: I don't know
shocker: whoa
CyberMatt: don what does agnostic mean
DON It means I am still searching for answers that I don't expect to ever finally get
CyberMatt: ah ic
DON The word means literally not knowing
Connie: cult chat?
Eric: would you say cults are endagering our society or is a threat to society? or should we just mind our own business and let these people believe in what they want to believe in. after all it is a free country and we have a free will to believe .
CyberMatt: connie, we are discussing cults, how they are and what they are about
RoLLy & StaC: true eric
?MISS P: good point eric
Connie: thanks cyber matt
Eric: just a thought
DON I think our society is a fertile birthplace for cults. They may be a threat but that could be either good or bad
Connie: are you an expert on cults, Don?
Hetha: It forces people to recognize the diversity in this country
Eric: well if city were killing themself to get on a space craft, then i would worry
Winsock Error: 10054 - Connection reset by peer
No connection - Press Connect button to go to a Palace
Connecting to wonder.lag.com:9998
Connected via TCP
Hetha: true Don
Connie: is it a preconception to wonder where the universe came from, or to breathe and wonder why or how we breathe?
DON Wondering is never a preconception. It is the most wonderful of activities
CyberToonª: preconception? what does that mean exactly?
Connie: but wondering leads us to answers, or the desire for one
MandyHill®©: A concept, without reason. cyber
?MISS P: which is why we are at Wonderland =)
CyberToonª: how is "pre"conception different than conception?
DON preconceptions are prior beliefs we carry around with us and don't realize we have
Connie: i beg to differ.. i was an atheist for years
CyberToonª: Oh, I see
Connie: but brought up Christian
Eric: do you study cults for a living don?
DON No
MandyHill®©: Did anyone here read the Heavens Gate Net Book?
CyberToonª: Nope
Connie: i tried to mandy
Eric: nope
Cyberia: just what was on the web
CyberToonª: Probably has mood altering messages in it...
Connie: but couldn't find it
Hetha: I read the web
DON: They interest me because I found myself drawn to one and then another. They were useful to me for a while but I grew disappointed
Connie: perhaps because man invented it
CyberToonª: yeah, man is evil...
Eric: so do you feel cults are wrong or right?
Eric: :??
Connie: my question is, how did you ever get the idea that there IS wrong or RIGHT? or is that preconceived also?
DON They may be a necessary evil but they need to be watched because they can make damaged people more damaged
CyberToonª: cults can be a good thing as long as they don't involve "killing yourselves"
?MISS P: Certainly wrong or right is not the issue
Connie: and if so, why do you still believe in it?
Eric: so you feel a cult is evil?
Connie: then why even address it?
Cyberia: why did 3 cults end up that way
MandyHill®©: I do not think Don said that
DON Good question. Wrong and right are to me relative
Connie: how?
Connie: believe what?
DON How did 3 cults end up that way? I think that is a question we must all ask ourselves
CyberToonª: Because maybe that's how everything that cynical has to end up, with death April the madhatter: what's everyone doin' in here?
?MISS P: By "necessary evil" do you mean that groups like this are necessary?
Eric: talking about cults
CyberMatt: we are having a discussion with a guest speaker
Cyberia: what made the people at jonestown kill themselves, no spaceship was coming?
April the madhatter: oh
DON Possibly. But isn't there a deeper issue here? Isn't there something missing in our society that cults and drugs etc seem to fill?
Connie: yes...a void
April the madhatter: yes...I think they need families
CyberMatt: they killed themselves because the police were coming for them (so i heard)
CyberToonª: :voids are everyone's excuse...
?MISS P: and a cult can become like a family then
April the madhatter: yup
Cyberia: how popular are cults, how many do you think exist today?
Random: Isn't it (whatever it may be) the same thing that organized religion feeds off of though?
MandyHill®©: Don, cults are NOT a new happening.
CyberMatt: and the leader said for them to kill themselves
April the madhatter: they're vulnerable people
CyberToonª: yeah, what about racist cults like KKK
April the madhatter: same thing I think
DON Cults are not new. But they need to be taken seriously. they are not unconnected with everything else that goes on.
?MISS P: if you take vulnerable people in and give them a comfort that is good...but if you take advantage of the vulnerabilities .....
?MISS P: then it is an evil
April the madhatter: this is great that you came here to talk about this
Connie: yes..manipulation and brainwashing
Eric: with out bad, cults, drugs etc. there would be nothing to judge GOOD. BAD most exist .or vice versa
April the madhatter: yeah ...exactly
MandyHill®©: What about our most familiar cult????? (Or was seen as one at the time... shocker: lol
Connie: i agree!!!!!
DON What makes someone vulnerable? I never considered myself to be vulnerable
April the madhatter: what about the people who start these cults
?MISS P: vulnerable as in open perhaps??? Seeking to fill that void?
DON The ones I know about started out with great sincerity
CyberToonª: they are corrupt, they want to gain people's trust
April the madhatter: when something happens in your life that makes you feel alone in the world I think it makes you vulnerable
?MISS P: what leads them astray then?
Connie: my question still has not been clearly answered....how did you ever know there was good, evil, vulnerable, vulnerability, sincerity, etc...
DON No. the followers arrived and they began to believe their own publicity
?MISS P: what makes it get so militant and mind controlling?
April the madhatter: good question
MandyHill®©: Critical thinking, connie.
Eric: the more belief in the follower, the more powerful the leader...
Connie: thanks
DON Connie, I started out by learning about all that from my parents teachers etc. Later I began to look again and I continue to look
CyberToonª: Hitler comes to mind
Eric: :or something like that
April the madhatter: yeah
Connie: so now you do not believe in goodness and badness?
MandyHill®©: Amen
Connie: so to speak?
Eric: i do
Eric: good can not be here with out bad
?MISS P: true eric
Connie: i agree eric
MandyHill®©: Amen, Eric
CyberToonª: There is no good or evil, only different ways of looking at the world
?MISS P: I agree with that
Connie: nope
DON There is a very good book called The Guru Papers by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstead that explores all this in great depth
Connie: I asked you, don
Connie: and I am not in a cult
April the madhatter: evil is sublime ...just as good is sublime
Connie: not trying to trap you in a question
Connie: just curious
Connie: searching for truth :)
DON Connie, I'm not sure what your question is
Connie: yes you are...
Connie: excuse my bluntness, but do you still believe in good and bad?
MandyHill®©: Don, have guts. answer the lady.
April the madhatter: what did the leader of that cult have to gain?
DON Only as relative terms that are specific to the circumstances
Connie: dodging the issue
DON Some kind of spiritual reward I guess
Eric: Hitler was a bad cult (military leader) who inflicted much pain on society. To me he is a leader who damaged society and people like him should not exist, unlike heaven's gate.
DON I agree about Hitler.
Eric: but you don't agree with heaven's gate?
CyberToonª: :No cults should exist, everyone should have their own take on things, no one is the same
DON Uncle griz, why are you pissing on me?
Connie: so you are saying that we should justify good and evil according to our own desires, don????
Cyberia: hehe
?MISS P: I think according to circumstance
Connie: so i should kill my sister if i feel it is necessary.. and it is not evil
?MISS P: not our own desires
DON Not at all. It takes close attention and the willingness to change
Connie: no P, that's not what he means
Uncle Griz: and God said no idols before me
nosª: :common sense should play into that Connie
April the madhatter: if "evil" exists I think it's motivated by fear
?MISS P: yes common sense and integrity
CyberToonª: Exactly April
Connie: OK...I see someone robbing a little old lady.. I should kill them :)
DON I think April has a good point
CyberToonª: Evil is created by the fear of death
April the madhatter: I do? what'd I say?
?MISS P: haha April
April the madhatter: no...by fear in general
Kalshassan: no toon, most religions are created through fear of death
Connie: fear or respect?
CyberToonª: but fear is mainly of death
?MISS P: fear is the basis I think of vulnerability and the need to follow a strong leader
Uncle Griz: fear is only in your mind
DON The fear of death has caused a lot of problems in many societies
April the madhatter: yup
MandyHill®©: :I must have said something BAD
?MISS P: to seek safety
nosª: :the fear of death is a natural thing
DON But isn't there a safer way to handle fear? Uncle Griz: Death should be treated like a friend
CyberMatt: if there were, would there be cults?
?MISS P: Of course there is a safer way
RoLLy : well we all gotta go sometime
Kalshassan: than mass suicide Don? yeah, I hope so
CyberToonª: Death is the enemy
DON After all everybody does it
Connie: respect of human beings has motivated many people's urge to see goodness as needed in society...you are beating around the bush
Connie: and not using one case study, I might add
RoLLy : well your death date is set and there is nothing you can do to stop it
April the madhatter: the strong(leaders)shall inherit the earth...we're products of our leaders in sense
CyberToonª: With immortality their would be no evil
April the madhatter: yes....gain strength by facing it
Kalshassan: good point april
Connie: i agree to an extent
?MISS P: are you seeking answers here ?
DON: We are products of our conditioning
Connie: the weak will always be around if there are strong
DON: Yes
Eric: how do you know that evil isn't actually good and vice versa?
CyberToonª: :opinions opinions, where's the facts?
Connie: self conditioning at maturity :)
RoLLy : but that is in anything Connie
Eric: :we don't RoLLy : that is why you have leader's and followers
?MISS P: And without the strong will the weak die? Or will they get strong out of necessity?
nosª: :haha Eric
Kalshassan: you get enough opinions together, you come to a conclusion
RoLLy : you either are one or the other
Connie: yes.. anything pertaining to life.. which is everything
Connie: it hasn't happened yet, P
April the madhatter: yeah what Don said
Heidi: no, everyone has both good and bad in them
CyberToonª: reality can be anything, we shouldn't be constrained to physical limitations
Kalshassan: yes heidi
Connie: at maturity, mentally, we learn to condition ourselves
?MISS P: we make conscious choices about good and bad based on life experience and upbringing
CyberMatt: :what subject are we on now
RoLLy : but that is why cults don't like the leader personality
Connie: yes
MandyHill®©: hahah, cyberMatt
April the madhatter: we're encouraged to be victims in this society
CyberMatt: hehe
April the madhatter: starting with Jesus
Eric: i think life in mortality is a great gift. going to try to get as much life as i can, what happens after death , deal with it when it happens.
Kalshassan: true enough april
Connie: Jesus said to be victims, or He was a victim?
Kalshassan: both connie
April the madhatter: yup
CyberToonª: :can't we just say anything that hits are brain?
CyberMatt: victims??
Connie: where did He teach to be a victim???
RoLLy : well believe what you want Connie
Kalshassan: the Christian belief plays on the theme of being martyr
?MISS P: Let's not veer into religion just now
Connie: i will rolly, you too hun,. I am just asking questions
April the madhatter: sorry
nosª: :Connie may have a point their
April the madhatter: I think of it as history
Kalshassan: yep april, me too
CyberToonª: :damn limitations, let's talk about anything that has to do with life and death
Mr.Smooooooootth: wassup y'all
Uncle Griz: there's only one thing to remember and that is GOD is watching so don't screw up
RoLLy : were all here for a good time...not a long time
MandyHill®©: Ha this reminds me of some of the conversations that went on in the coffee houses and poetry readings of the 60's.
Hetha: hehehe
April the madhatter: he's not Santa Claus
Kalshassan: only for some people griz
?MISS P: indeed Mandy
DON:The problem with cults is not so much the leader, be it Jesus or whoever, but those followers who want to make something out of it
CyberToonª: No wonder they were so spacey back then
nosª: :cyber toon; don't look for people answering it
Mr.Smooooooootth: I don't really give a flying fuck about this motherfuckin cult shit so who cares
Connie: many in here show a lack of research on a subject they do not care about anyway
Uncle Griz: o great you a non believer
CyberMatt: beat me to it rolly lol
Eric: why is that a problem don?
Kalshassan: no griz, I believe in many things
April the madhatter: that's true...the leaders have no power without followers
nosª: whoa rolly your fast
Kalshassan: just not necessarily the same things as you
RoLLy : gotta be quick
Uncle Griz: and they are??
?MISS P: that is true
Uncle Griz: All thing's are possible
?MISS P: when free thinking is lost or given up.....that is a problem to me
Kalshassan: I'd just like to say I'm extremely impressed at Mr. smooths's grasp of the English language, I think he made a valid point, and how come it took him about three minutes to type two sentences?
Eric: yeah miss p
Connie: hahahahah
MandyHill®©: hahaha
nosª: :remember, not all leaders are insane greedy killers, some actually think what they are doing is right
Eric: free will is a great gift given to us by???
MandyHill®©: Let me apologize for him, Don
CyberMatt: if u don't care about it then why ya here?
Eric: :god perhaps
Connie: God
April the madhatter: yeah what miss p said
MandyHill®©: fingers out of control
Connie: i agree matt
?MISS P: yes they believe but are not willing to remain open to challenge or other thoughts or ideas
Uncle Griz: God help us all
CyberMatt: i don't agree with mr.smooooth
RoLLy : in many ways yes griz
Eric: is that why god let satan come to earth?
MandyHill®©: hahah
RoLLy : me either matt
Eric: :maybe eve wasn't a evil woman
DON:are serious?
Connie: that is another subject, is it not?
Eric: :hehe
nosª: :did god let satan come to earth Eric?
CyberToonª: Of course you don't believe with Smooth or you wouldn't be here
MandyHill®©: Don, did you read the Heaven Gate Manafesto?
Eric: :beats me
DON:No
?MISS P: Don???? How are you doing with time?
Connie: God gave free will.. he did not want to create robots MADE to love or serve Him
Uncle Griz: different things for different people just don't screw with other people
?MISS P: I agree Connie
CyberMatt: so many different subjects we are talking about
Connie: I hope you are right, april, for your sake
CyberMatt: can we stick to one!?
CyberToonª: How do you know what God thinks, you're just saying what you think he would want
MandyHill®©: Kal, search HevensGate, Yahoo
Heidi: The HG Manafesto is actually very well written
nosª: :hey Eric lets try to figure out answers to questions that have no answer for 30 min
Kalshassan: thanks mandy
?MISS P: yes can we try to wrap this back into a tidy package please
DON:Coffee sounds good to me too
Connie: i read what he said.. have you??
Cyberia: how do we know these cult leaders are not satan in disguise?
Eric: !isn't free will great?
Kalshassan: yep
Hetha: We need facilitation
Uncle Griz: point there is a God there is a Satan
Connie: i agree cyberia
Eric: Hitler came close cyb.
Cyberia: satan tempting the weak people
nosª: Cyberia your remark is insane but, anything is possible
MandyHill®©: The interesting thing was, it had a lot of reasonable things to say.
Connie: actually, there were cults mentioned in the Bible
MandyHill®©: Interesting and different
CyberMatt: satan is in everyone i think
Cyberia: perhaps hitler was really satan
RoLLy : :whos makin' coffee?
Connie: men going around claiming to be Christ
?MISS P: lets slow down
Heidi: satan takes many forms
CyberMatt: lol!
April the madhatter: good point cyber
Uncle Griz: hitler was a gutless wonder
?MISS P: this is not a religion chat
Eric: uhuh
pril the madhatter: is now
Kalshassan: more power to MissP
Eric: back to cults
?MISS P: thanks
Connie: religion..cult..whatever you call it :)
RoLLy : Ya
nosª: There's only one way all this can be answered, a chat room with God and Satan in it (I vote Eric to play satan)
CyberToonª: I think people needed rules, and religion was a good way of enforcing them
CyberMatt: lets let Don do the talking again
Heidi: most cults are based on religion of some form
?MISS P: I don't know how much longer Don has to chat so I would like to give him a chance
Kalshassan: I thought this was a discussion about cults, and how they would affect us online, if I wanted a theology debate I'd go elsewhere
Connie: I was disappointed to know the expert was agnostic ..sorry :)
Uncle Griz: Cults STINK
MandyHill®©: I found my self wondering, IF I was isolated with these people for 3 years, day and night, 7 days a week, if I would begin to buy into it.
Eric: just got to open your eyes to all possibilities.
?MISS P: Sorry Connie, we didn't come here tho to sign up....hehe
CyberMatt: griz, then why are u here
April the madhatter: yup...exactly Connie...point well made...religion..cults
April the madhatter: same diff
?MISS P: yes I know Mandy
DON:Religion fulfills a very useful purpose but like anything powerful it has its dangers
CyberMatt: lets get back to DON please
nosª: Its hard to change the way one thinks Connie
Connie: I know many experts you could get that know what they are talking about :)
Connie: what have I asked you to sign, P?
April the madhatter: yup
?MISS P: I think we might like to think we wouldn't
CyberMatt: stop the animation
Uncle Griz: so I can do this to you
CyberMatt: griz please
Heidi: cults fill a void in certain people
Cyberia: hi Janet
CyberToonª: Religion is for people to make their lives feel more meaningful
April the madhatter: so are cults
MandyHill®©: Order! Order!
April the madhatter: same thing
Eric: so does religion heidi, just the numbers aren't as great.
Connie: well, anyhow, have a good day everyone! I have to go.. good luck in your search, Don.. hope you find the truth one day :)
Cyberia: anyone have questions for Don put up a ?
Cyberia: ^?
?MISS P: thanks for coming Connie
CyberToonª: Sorry Connie, the truth is out of our reach at this moment in reality
nosª: haha Cyber
Connie: thank you miss p :)
MandyHill®©: This group would NOT make a good cult.
Eric: very true
?MISS P: haha Mandy
Connie: i won't even address that cyber.. geez :)
DON:I ought to try to wrap it up now. Cults are youthful future religions, even secular cults have this quality. If I was interested in starting a cult I would start a cult that would be self-destructing
DON: It would make an awful cult
?MISS P: hahaha
Heidi: is a cult ever a good thing?
CyberToonª: nope
MandyHill®©: Titillating......
nosª: can I say whatever I want and get away with it if I put a :) on the end like Connie? (sorry had to say that)
?MISS P: Make it last long enough to share ideas then ... poof?
DON:Because everybody wants to be the leader
?MISS P: lol nos
April the madhatter: some people would rather follow
Hetha: lol nos
CyberToonª: Yes Nos, that's a good way of getting people to gain your favor
Eric: so you are saying cult leaders are making people into self destruction on purpose Don?
RoLLy : :)
CyberToonª: It makes you looks trustworthy
DON: NO not self destructing people, self destructing the authoritarian impulse
Eric: ah
Eric: :ic
MandyHill®©: MMMMM
RoLLy : cool
?MISS P: big difference
Eric: yeah
RoLLy : only need 1 leader
April the madhatter: this was very interesting
April the madhatter: thanks
nosª its really sad that Don took the time to do this and a wild thinker had to slam on him with her nonsense gibberish
Eric: yeah it was
Kalshassan: not always rolly
Hetha: Thank you Don
DON:My pleasure
Kalshassan: often a group leading is more effective
CyberMatt: Thanks for speaking tonite, DON
Cyberia: )applause
MandyHill®©: Another thought I had Don, I would NEVER have read their book, were it not for the hoopla they caused by dying.
?MISS P: )applause
April the madhatter: )applause
CyberMatt: learned alot
RoLLy : ya but a group needs a leader kal
MandyHill®©: )APPLAUSE
Kalshassan: )applause don
CyberToonª: Ah, you're leaving Don? Good luck with the Three's Company Reuinion :)
nosª: yes DON, you have taught me a lot
?MISS P: well curiosity is a strong force too Mandy
?MISS P: haha CT
Cyberia: lol
MandyHill®©: yes
Eric: thanx for coming don, and enlightening us this subject, from time to time it's nice to be refresh on these subjects
DON:Thanks. Yeah curiosity rules okay?
?MISS P: I think this topic can go on forever
?MISS P: but there's the final quote!!!!
MandyHill®©: But if they were Wanting it Read and it was not getting read; it worked.
Eric: it can!!
DON:Not with me
janet: question authority:)
?MISS P: !Curiosity Rules!
Heidi: it's all in the individual interpretation
?MISS P: absolutely
April the madhatter: yes thank you Don
MandyHill®©: Don, thank you.
CyberToonª: curiosity has is most active when there is no definitive answer
RoLLy : thx don for dropping in
DON:Yes absolutely
?MISS P: it is how you play the game
Eric: it is what you want to believe
DON:The infinite game
nosª: if it weren't for curiosity we would all die of boredom
MandyHill®©: Don, can you handle one more question?
RoLLy : true nos
DON:Okay
?MISS P: well yes nos.....but we'd still have The Palace
CyberToonª: No, it is possible to still have fun and no everything
?MISS P: )LOL
CyberMatt: lol MP!
Eric: yeah, palace rulz
Cyberia: :never be bored
MandyHill®©: How big a role does ISOLATION play in the formation of a cult?
April the madhatter: so true
nosª: haha MP (sad but true)
Heidi: Palace: our own little cult
RoLLy : curiosity killed the kat nos
nosª: haha
MandyHill®©: Paramount?
RoLLy : :wonderland cultists
DON:IN my experience isolation is more self imposed than imposed from above
?MISS P: :is jbum our exalted leader?
curman: )yes
janet: weren't the members not allowed to visit family?
MandyHill®©: Hummm
?MISS P: yes cut off from all former ties
CyberMatt: members of heavens gate?
Cyberia: members of many cults
nosª: :no miss p if you got to know jbum real well, you wouldn't trust him with anything
nosª: :haha
Heidi: cultists believe that outsiders can't possible understand them
CyberMatt: ah
?MISS P: hahahahahaa
DON:It was more complicated than that. Usually the leaders were respecting the wishes of the members
DON:Heidi is right
nosª: heidi nailed it
janet: well, i think they were right:)
MandyHill®©: Hum. Have you written anything, Don? that we could read more of your ideas?
Heidi: they take solace in each other
DON: I keep trying to leave but this is habit forming.
CyberMatt: thx again don
CyberMatt: lol don
Lynne: lol
DON: could it be a cult
?MISS P: and I want to know what they did with 39 brand new pairs of nikes
Eric: yeah it is don
CyberToonª: hopefully people will be smart enough not to band together for negative purposes
Lynne: but a comfortable, safe place
MandyHill®©: )AMEN
Heidi: come again soon, don
?MISS P: this is an addiction not a cult
April the madhatter: we need better leaders
?MISS P: haha
RoLLy : and we follow so well
MandyHill®©: Don, Published?
Cyberia: are there any cults that do good?
RoLLy : haha
DON:Apple sauce, I'm out of here or else I 'll be trapped in the Palace and turn into a palacite
?MISS P: Thanks again for sharing time with us this way
Kalshassan: there's worse things to become don!
Buffy: Don may I say something regarding prayer
CyberMatt: bye don
Cyberia: is that bad?
nosª: sometimes I sit and wonder why we are here, but I always have to stop because it gives me a headache
Kalshassan: come to us and become like us!
MandyHill®©: Don, the power guys can cut you a deal.
?MISS P: hehhe
Kalshassan: hehe
Kalshassan: wow, that's a new topic, is palace a cult?
Lynne: lol
RoLLy : next week
MandyHill®©: Hahahah
Cyberia: if it is it's a good one
?MISS P: Thank you all for coming and chatting.....this was great....I think we should do more of these sorts of talks
Lynne: it isn't
CyberToonª: Isn't it possible to like something without being obsessed with it?
MsDream: Palace is an addiction
RoLLy : yes miss p
Eric: no no, we don't eat applesauce
Kalshassan: dead right cyb
Lynne: yes sorta
April the madhatter: don't say that Kalshassan or we'll all get booted
Lynne: sure is
RoLLy : hehhe ms
Heidi: only pudding
Eric: )guffaw
RoLLy : lol
MsDream: hahahaha
nosª: payed even
Buffy: )amen
April the madhatter: Bye Miss P
CyberMatt: hehe
CyberToonª: Well that's where money belongs....in hell
CyberMatt: ya thats what i was thinking
?MISS P: Thanks so much to Wonderland for hosting this chat
Heidi: sorry i came in so late -- good conversation
Cyberia: lol
janet: all i know is jbum aint getting it!!
CyberMatt: TPI now
?MISS P: )applause
nosª: same here janet
MsDream: hahaha janet
Heidi: will be doing this again soon?
?MISS P: we really should do this more
Cyberia: we can continue our debate
April the madhatter: call me ignorant...but who was Don?
Eric: hahaha, april
?MISS P: Don is an ex-cult member
janet: hahaha ok
CyberToonª: ignorant? that's a perfectly valid question
janet: really?
?MISS P: he was involved with a couple of groups in the late 60s and through the 80s
janet: boy I missed everything
?MISS P: He is no longer with any organized group
nosª: :question
Lynne: looks like I did
CyberToonª: Did he wise up?
Cyberia: so he left the cults then rejoined?
?MISS P: he wised up
janet: :why are we thinking to each other?
nosª: as of now, who owns palace
Eric: he was enlightening us...
Eric: :i guess
janet: the palace inc. a subsidiary of Intel
?MISS P: those self help things in the 60/70s called Arica
April the madhatter: oh
April the madhatter: thanks
CyberMatt: intel cyb
CyberToonª: when too many people believe in the same thing it's scary
CyberMatt: lol
Eric: too much acid in the 60's
April the madhatter: is there a cult anonymous group?
janet: jbum conceived it, wrote it, but he was an employee
Lynne: geez thought they just invested money not a controlling interest
Eric: and too much cocaine in the 80's
Eric: hahahaah
janet: hha
janet: so, who arranged today's discussion?
CyberMatt: Miss P
?MISS P: I did
CyberToonª: Actually people had more self-esteem in the 80's, everyone seems dead nowadays
janet: how did you hear of this person?
April the madhatter: I love interesting convos like this.....what a good idea MissP
?MISS P: I have known him a very long time
janet: yes, im sorry I missed it
?MISS P: He is my father
?MISS P: hehehehee
CyberMatt: lol MP
janet: hahah no wonder you've known him a long time
April the madhatter: they were living in a fantasy world though
?MISS P: we go way back
janet: can't go any farther
Kalshassan: while the HG thing was obviously tragic
CyberToonª: in the 80's?
janet: :can you?
Lynne: what I want to know is who covered them with the purple cloths
Kalshassan: it WAS what those 39 people believed
?MISS P: I did a lot of research
Lynne: they couldn't do that
April the madhatter: reality really aint that bad...it's what you make of it
Buffy: they died in stages
janet: i would imagine so, miss P
Lynne: to themselves
MsDream: they covered themselves Lynne
Buffy: 3 groups
Kalshassan: and I hate anyone who ridicules the beliefs of others
Cyberia: maybe you can tell us more about those days
CyberToonª: Well what's wrong with living in a fantasy world, no matter where you are you're always in reality
Buffy: don't you every watch TV?
?MISS P: but it was not like the heaven's gate folks
Cyberia: might help us learn about it
Guest 936: Don't people that march off to war and
Lynne: would have been hard to do that neatly
?MISS P: he led a "nornal life"
?MISS P: still scary
April the madhatter: I was referring to people during the 80s
Hetha: and he never abandoned you MP
Kalshassan: that's a good point
Cyberia: how did they operate
Guest 936: so, what's wrong with marching off to the stars?
Cyberia: did they make people give up stuff to them?
janet: you cant march to the stars in nikes
Guest 936: seems the same to me, but I don't march.
CyberToonª: Well living in a fantasy world in the number one goal of society
Lynne: no , I read that they gave everything away to others not to the group
?MISS P: There are 39 perfectly new pairs of nikes floating around somewhere dammit
April the madhatter: yeah money
April the madhatter: good goal
?MISS P: what a waste
janet: lol
Kalshassan: true 936
Kalshassan: it's about what you think is most important
Lynne: then someone left them an inheritance in the 80's
RoLLy : nite all thx for the chat
?MISS P: Thanks so much everyone
Cyberia: finally on our time zone rolly
janet: yes some of them had inherited money
Hetha: Thanks to you Miss P
?MISS P: I wish I could stay ... but need to get off the phone line now
Cyberia: right
Lynne: they supported them selves doing web sites
Fizz: this is Fizz's daughter Muppet and I have to go now but it was an interesting conversation. Good night to everyone. :o)
CyberToonª: Bye P
?MISS P: !Thanks Cyb!!!
Cyberia: nite
curman: see ya RoLLy : nite all
Lynne: niters
Lynne: to all leaving
Cyberia: see ya Miss P
Cyberia: this was fun
CyberToonª: :I'm just a mindless drone with ideas no body believes in
April the madhatter: see ya
?MISS P: see u later
?MISS P: take care all
19:29:27 - Closing Log