Chubby Jackson (Greig Stewart Jackson) was born in New York City in 1918. His greatest and most memorable body of work came from Woody Herman's First and Second Herds of the mid-to-late 1940's. In that band, along with drummer Dave Tough and later Don Lamond, he was the support and lifeline in the rhythm section but also the cheerleader, vocal and exuberant, leading on the excellent soloists as though it were a sporting event. According to Woody Herman, the catalyst for the first and second herd's amazing cohesiveness and espirit d'corps, was Chubby Jackson. These were Woody's sentiments:
"What an immense influence he (Chubby Jackson) had on us! And what enthusiasm! He used to get around to hear everything. He was always screaming about this musician and that musician. He'd been with Charlie Barnet, along with Ralph Burns, Neal Hefti and Frances Wayne, and he kept telling us we should hire them. So we did, and you know how much they've meant to us!"
After Herman broke up the band, Jackson went on to play with Charlie Ventura's Septet where he further explored the avenues of bebop interjecting it with the great sense of swing from which Chubby was rooted.
He also did recordings and toured as a leader and co-leader with his pal, the legendary trombonist, Bill Harris. In the 1950's he spent a lot of time doing studio work and even hosted a television program for children.
We conducted this interview with the help of his loving daughter Jaijai
Via Cyberspace E-Mail and Fax
Chubby's daughter, Jaijai, is now producing a jazz legend series for television... Þrst one being on her father... Here are her sentiments toward her dad... "My father has been such a powerful force in my life, he has taught me how to look at life with a smile on my face and has introduced me to an art-form of music that is evergreen. I will keep our heritage alive with all that I am, thanks Dad, for your talent, the laughs, your faithful spirit and most of all the love you give to me, I am blessed to have you as my Dad" I promise to teach your six year old grand-daughter Chloe Zae all about you -
we love you,
Jaijai
Woody Herman's First Herd broke new ground in "Big Band Jazz," with some aggressive writing coming from Neal Hefti, Ralph Burns and Woody himself. For myself, I can vividly remember listening to radio broadcasts that were sponsored by Wildroot Cream Oil and Old Gold cigarettes (containing Apple Honey) and being stunned by the new and daring approach that would change Big Band Jazz forever. This was avant-garde for that time but not far out. This music was exciting, vibrant and fresh. The band was alive and your bass playing along with drummer Davey Tough and later Don Lamond were the spine and backbone which supported the band.Tell us what the atmosphere was like in those days. Were most of the sidemen aware that something new and fresh was being created? Did Woody give a lot of leeway to the writers and soloists to expand their ideas?
The atmosphere plus the personal attitudes of Woody and the entire Herd had its' own title that I call "Love Is The Answer". Top drawer for counter respect for one another was tremendously aided by the spirit that exploded from that particular bandstand day and night. Woody recognized the outstanding outgoing talent and gave us all a go ahead sign in regard to some of the daredevil patterns we attempted. All of us sidemen were unbelievably grateful to Woody for his open hearted approach to all of us. How well I remember how all in fun, we compared ourselves to the Chicago Bears professional football team that created one victory after another. I truly do not think or recall that any other big band that sponsored jazz ever had the obvious fire and excitement that the First Herd had. What a band!
You were, no doubt, the most vocal member of that band. Yelling everyone on, whooping it up behind the soloists. Was this the most fun you'd ever had in your musical career?
There was ever never any doubt that I had positioned myself to become the cheerleader that egged every member to openly scream congratulations to one another at the completion of their individual choruses. Even the audiences were shouting the same types of compliments which made their reactions to all of us extremely heart warming. To add, we also did the same amount of happy screaming when the band recorded. All of that down deep concept of fun most certainly proved itself beyond compare.
Owing to the size and spectrum of Woody's First Herd, your playing came through solid and you seemed to do a lot of things differently. I got the feeling that you went out on a limb many times. The beauty of it was, you never seemed to get lost. When asked, many bass players, during those times, would cite Jimmy Blanton as their idol or main influence. Frankly, I didn't hear him coming from your playing. To my way of thinking, you seemed to create a new energetic approach to the bass. Who were your first influences on the instrument?
I'm proud that I can openly say that I was influenced by two bassists at the time that I entered the fray with my bass that I called "Bessie." I bought it for $3.00 from my mentor Arnold Fishkind who at that time was playing with the swingin' Bunny Berigan Big Band. Without any doubt or question, Jimmy Blanton walked into my life on bass with a brand new approach on how to accompany a big band, which of course was the Duke himself. I've always felt that influence is necessary, but from then on began to find and discover one's own creative direction. I must proudly admit that Drummer Davey Tough that I played with in the First Herman Herd taught me what areas of the fingerboard to address from the ensemble sound along with the soloists. Even though I had added a top C string, he pointed out to stay down low on so many parts of an arrangement. Go from under and work up to some highs plus the exact opposite. Stay in the same range that the band is at certain times. In other words, he showed me how to explore.
That First Herd had some outstanding and very original soloists. To date, I feel no one has ever approached the wide and wonderful execution of the trombone as Bill Harris did. And Flip Phillips could be warm and romantic on the ballads, and swing like hell on the up tempo numbers. Who did you hang out with in the band? And, could you give us any particular interesting favorite story to share with us?
To date, my favorite gentleman on trombone was and still is without question his honor Bill Harris. What a creative musician he was. He used to play differently every time he stood up to solo. The band used to impatiently await his turn and when he sat down, the entire band would visibly let him know how they felt. Flip Phillips is definitely a then and now giant. He's still playing festivals all over wherever with a fantastic sound and audience appeal. In the trumpet section, all the gents had their own sound and sense of time. Neal Hefti, Sonny Berman, Conte Candoli, Pete Candoli and lastly Shorty Rogers. Ralph Burns to me was a pianist/arranger second to none. Billy Bauer who now is a famous guitar teacher taught us a great deal about his conception of guitar. Lastly, my two favorite drummers in the First Herd Davey Tough and Don Lamond. Every member of this orchestra were also close friends and musical associates. It was the most exciting in my entire life.
When the band first introduced numbers like Apple Honey, Goosey Gander, Wildroot and Northwest Passage, how were they first received at dances and concerts when the audience might still be expecting to hear Woodchooper's Ball?
When the moment arrived that numbers like apple Honey, Goosey Gander, Wildroot and Northwest Passage became no less than most famous, the audiences that showed up at the dances, concerts, hotels theaters all were all dyed-in-wool fans of whatever we played. If anybody requested "Wood Chopper's Ball, the existing First Herd played it with their own private feeling. The solos were completely different and the rhythm section possessed a beat that belonged totally to them. All of the aforementioned songs appearing in the First sentence up top were called Head arrangements. Not one note of music was written on paper and their inception. Later on, specific written material was added to the Herman library in event that there were any replacements for the original players. To add it all up, the First Herd was a fantastic contribution to the art of the American Jazz culture. Thank you Woody.
You were a part of the orchestra when Igor Stravinsky, so impressed by Woody's music, was prompted to write "Ebony Concerto." Describe what it was like to work under the baton of this great musical figure?
At the time, Woody's band was performing at the Paramount Theater in New York City. In the afternoon, between shows, we'd all dash upstairs to the rehearsal room backstage when in walked His Honor, Mr.Igor Stravinsky. Speaking for myself, I had received my bass part a couple of weeks earlier and I was flabbergasted to observe how simple the written material for bass was. I was saying, "I can't believe this." After all the written parts from Ralph Burns and Neal Hefti, here I was confronted with one that looked so simple and childish that I couldn't stop thinking about it
Then, when the band was assembled and all introductions were over, the maestro beat off counting: "One, two, three, four," clapping his hands along with it. The band came in and I got lost in the second bar. The reason for all this was that each member of the rhythm section had his own part that had nothing to do with one another. Usually, the guys in the rhythm section leaned on each other for a successful sound. When we got lost that started things off with a crash. At least, it brought me back to my senses. He had written a very difficult part for both Flip Phillips on tenor saxophone and Woody himself. When we got to Flip's contribution, he stumbled all over the place. Stravinsky stopped the band and in his guttural Russian accent said: "My good fellow, what you are playing is very nice but what I have written is much better." The band lost it's tension and we broke into a huge laugh. When the rehearsal was over, Stravinsky was moving around into each section and shaking hands with the guys. When he came over to me, and noticed that I had five strings on my bass violin. He reached out and grabbed the violin and stroked a few notes here and there. The photographers leaped on the scene and, leave it to me, instead of being serious I made a very dumb looking face because I though it was funny. To this day, I have never been able to get a photograph of the two of us together. But I guess that was me and I had to live with it. Let's put it this way: We were all very proud to be in the same room with the maestro.
Moving on to Woody Herman's Incredible Second Herd:
Although Walt Yoder started on bass with the Second Herd, soon after you emerged to give your incredible energy and talents to one of the greatest assemblages of outstanding musical talent to ever play together in a jazz band. Shorty Rogers, Red Rodney, Stan Getz, Jimmy Guiffre and Zoot Sims to name a few, plus Bill Harris still doing his thing with this new music. Compare your feelings working with this new and exciting band to that of the First Herd.
There was a decided difference between the First and Second Herd. The First Herd musically produced one explosion after another along with some very original type concepts. The music itself, written by Neal and Ralph, proved itself beyond doubt. The music of the Second Herd had a very different sound due to the fact that there were now four tenors and a baritone which immediately changed the sound of the band. Al Cohn had a different way of writing that was positively fantastic. Jimmy Guiffre the same, along with Shorty Rogers. The soloists themselves were different type players. Stan Getz and Zoot Sims added a brand new approach to the tenor sax. Red Rodney and Shorty Rogers also changed the sound in the trumpet section but, once again, let's not get away from my favorite instrumentalist of all time, Bill Harris, who remained the most brilliant. Don Lamond, who I had nicknamed Itch-a-ka-boom gave the band a completely different feeling in the rhythm section that was previously driven by Davey Tough. Of course, when the Second Herd would play all of the previous hits of the First Herd you can believe me, they were recognizable as a product of the previous Herd. As far as I was concerned, I was very proud to have been part of both the Herds. I learned a lot from all those musical giants who were surrounding me.
With Bebop revolutionizing jazz, Woody took financial risks in extending his band to play this new music that wasn't entirely accepted by the majority of the public yet. To quote from "Woodchoppers Ball - The Autobiography of Woody Herman, by Stuart Troup, "The audience that could understand "Apple Honey," however, couldn't relate to "Lemon Drop" or "Four Brothers." Musically, the Bebop route was magnificent. But business-wise, it was the dumbest thing I ever did."
I personally can recall hearing George Wallington's "Lemon Drop" for the first time. It had as much of an impact on me as "Apple Honey" earlier did or Wildroot." Tell me, Chubby, was that you and Terry Gibbs doing that wonderful bop vocal on Lemon Drop? How did Bebop impact you?
Let's keep in mind that from the early stages of Woody's career as a bandleader, he was always in search of newer avenues in regards to arrangements and solos. I remember well, because I joined The BandThat PlayedThe Blues, there the First Herd was born in a theater in Indianapolis after the last show. It changed the sound of the band completely. As Woody's reputation started to grow as a great contributor to the progress of jazz, on came the Second Herd. I was present, also, in the Third Herd which, incidentally, was my last stop as far as all the herds were concerned. But with all the changes of arrangers and soloists and rhythm sections, Woody kept moving steadily forward regardless of the fact that the music business in all probability as well as the listeners involved were not as ready to accept the radical progress involved. All of this never stopped Woody from marching straight ahead.
When I went to Europe with my little band featuring Terry Gibbs, Conte Candoli, Frank Socolow, Lou Levy and Denzil Best we recorded Lemon Drop with our vocal group known as The Three Nudnicks featuring Terry, Conte Candoli and myself. When we returned to the States, I rejoined Woody's band (The Second Herd) and saw to it that Terry Gibbs and Lou Levy came along with me. We then recorded it for Capitol in Los Angeles with Terry and Shorty Rogers and myself. I totally agreed with Woody's coordinative abilities when it came to choosing what styles to play. I was the most willing to learn some of the newer ups and downs of what was then titled Bebop. There's no doubt that there was a tremendous upsurge in regard to sound and style. Needless to say, I not only enjoyed it, I loved it. Hats off to Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker.
A lot's been written about the problems Woody tolerated from the drug habits of the young Bebop players, particularly Serge Chaloff. The little recorded work that's survived from Serge is absolutely brilliant. Was it a difficult task for Woody to keep everybody straight? Did Woody have a lot of discipline problems to deal with on the bandstand?
There's no doubt that the bandstand itself was more interested in the god given talent of the musicians themselves. Woody was no different than any of the other jazz bandleaders in dealing with that horrific problem. The musicians who were involved came and went with common regularity. Many of them, as of this moment, have made their step forward. God bless them all and thanks for their musical talent.
You joined Charlie Ventura, who continued exploring the avenues of Bebop, sometime around 1947. Did working with the smaller group of Charlie's afford you a chance to stretch out on your playing?
After leaving Woody for the second time, I ventured into all kinds of directions: my own bands, big and small, recording dates all around New York, a group called The Big Four with Buddy Rich, Charlie Ventura, Marty Napoleon and myself plus a few dates with Charlie Ventura's own group. During that period I was very interested in presenting to the public a lot of my own ideas that I'd learned in the past. There was no doubt that I chose the wrong time because we were approaching the decline of the big band presentation along with a great deal of jazz that was narrowing into small nightclubs with trios and duos and single pianos. Whatever. The world keeps moving on and I am very optimistic that once again the greatness of jazz music will emerge as Number One in the entire world. I have nothing but admiration for all of its players, past and present, and for those coming up in the next century.
You were one of the jazz greats to pose for that incredible picture, "A Great Day In Harlem." In fact you were right there on the top of the stoop near Art Farmer and, I think, Art Blakey. What memories can you conjure up and share with us from that incredible moment in History when so many jazz greats gathered for posterity?
Talking and thinking about the incident know as A Great Day in Harlem, I am utterly flabbergasted from its inception up to this very moment. Naturally, getting together with all of those, now rated, legends of jazz was very awe-inspiring. Swapping stories, accompanied by waves of laughter and the fact that all of us were getting together face-to-face was unbelievable. It is true that musicians saw each other in nightclubs or once in a while when traveling on the road or in a restaurant and our greetings were always openly the most gracious and fulfilling. But, to get together on a street in Harlem and with everybody screaming at one another and with the photographers lining things up and other reporters taking notes was one of the most exciting get-togethers of my entire life up to date. What's even more exciting was the rapid growth of this event in the eyes of the world. All of a sudden, that picture started to gain fame. Seems like it became a must amongst the fans of jazz. To sum it all up, a few years ago we had a reunion at the same address in Harlem of which there were only ten of the original fifty-eight players left. The head photographer put those of us remaining in the original position we stood in 38 years before for a special tribute in Life Magazine. I came back to New York from San Diego filled with anticipation and, needless to say, as of this time, the Life Magazine event was one of the warmest moments I've ever been part of.
You joined with Charlie Ventura and soon after.started your own band with Bill Harris. Later, as other jazz musicians from that era, you entered into doing studio work. This led to your hosting your own Children's Television Show. Tell us how this all came to be. Did that extraordinary experience complement your musical involvement in any way? Or, was this a complete switch in your life's career?
Amongst all my activities in music, I received an offer to join Louis Armstrong at the Chicago Theater replacing Milt Hinton, who, incidentally is one of my favorite bassist friends. At the completion of the ten weeks with Louis, I went to work on assignment playing for the Kukla, Fran and Ollie network show on ABC. Burr Tillstrom asked me to give Beulah Witch a bass lesson during one of the shows and the two of us ad libbed some very, very funny material. Unbeknownst to me, that same night Burr Tillstrom recommended me to become a host of an hour- long daily show known as the Little Rascals and starting that following Monday. All I can say is that doing a live show on television five days a week, one never stops learning.. My first commercial was with Wonder Bread and it was a total disaster. The bread popped out of the toaster too fast and the stagehand held my cue cards upside down. To sum all this experience up at the Chicago station, in ten months I won the Best Local Kiddie Show Award, presented to me by comic Jan Murray at the Edgewater Beach Hotel. From there, I was sent on to New York to continue the same show for ABC, a sum total of thirteen years in both cities. However, I continued my career in music, mostly with record dates, transcriptions and special appearances all over the New York area. I loved every minute of it.
Speaking about having led your own band, were you at home and more comfortable being a sideman, rather than a leader? Did you find that the rigors and, non musical responsibilities, interfered with expanding yourself musically?
There's no doubt that being a sideman in the earlier part of my career with my friend, Charlie Barnet and my mentor, Woody Herman, helped me learn so many tricks of the trade on how to run a band. I became a leader because I wanted to experiment with my own ideas with the assistance of some of the finest jazz players in the trade. It was an unfortunate experience that when I began my new career as a leader, I was facing the rapid decline of the Big Bands and what they stood for. High rates of inflation did not permit a leader or a promoter of a band to even attempt to pay the expenses although I'm still very grateful that a good deal of my big band efforts were recorded on different labels. It was fun while it lasted. In regard to all the paperwork that it took to commandeer a big band on the road, I haven't the slightest remembrance of any of it. Just as well.
Years ago, when I listened to a jazz solo, I immediately knew if it were a Flip Phillips, Zoot Sims or Bill Harris. Musicians had a personality that came through in their playing and a style that would instantly identify them to the listener. While today's young jazz players have an advantage of being exposed to better jazz curriculums at the University level, it seems to me they've become technically proficient but lost that personal style jazz players had from the past. Is this because your University came through hard life experiences coming from the rigors of traveling on the road?
Years ago when the music business was definitely a recognizable trade,we musicians were constantly working different jobs, theaters, hotels, one-nighters all over, traveling beyond expectations. It seems our whole lives were wrapped up in doing what we knew best. It was a school beyond a school. Work decreased in these latter years and that made it very difficult to experiment within the atmosphere of being a daredevil as far as attempting to create original sounds rather than being a slave to being simply an imitator of somebody else's creativity. I do believe that the younger musicians will witness an uprise in the business and will be able to, once again, experience the freedom of expression. From what I hear, the country itself is demanding the return of swing music. Personally, I'm very anxious to happily review those results.
What are your feelings about today's Jazz Scene? And, which bass players do you find yourself paying more attention to?
The jazz scene in this last two decades didn't seem to produce names like some of the gentlemen in the Basie, Ellington and Herman bands. Once in a great while you'd hear some younger player who impressed you but not like in the past. My grateful thanks to the Universities and High Schools who successfully combat these problems with their own jazz organizations where I'm sure that certain players will graduate into the inner circle of national recognition. Good luck and Godspeed to all of them. I am the most impressed with a bassist from Denmark, Niels-Henning Ørsted Pedersen whom I listen to with the Oscar Peterson small groups. His bass solos are extremely audible, very clean and very melodic. So many bass solos are simply no more than a bag of tricks. I have been aware of this attitude for all the moments of my career as a player right through to my retirement. My admiration for bass players is endless starting from Jimmy Blanton on up. Ray Brown, Ron Carter, Jay Leonhart, Bob Magnusson, Arnold Fishkind, Milt Hinton, and many, many others have achieved great talent with the lady bass. I salute them all.
Finally, you've brought so much joy, happiness and spirit to the music we all love, jazz. What would you say was your most crowning achievement throughout your outstanding career?
If I have any particular crowning achievement throughout my career in jazz, I'd like to say that every moment that I was on a bandstand with all the greats that I had the thrill and pleasure of playing with would all be wrapped up in one. Day after day, night after night, were new experiences with momentous victories being showered on everyone on that particular bandstand. I was just hilariously grateful for appearing with all these fantastic musicians. God bless jazz and everyone that's been involved with it.
And God Bless Chubby Jackson.
Afterthoughts By Chubby Jackson
Looking back in some of the chapters of my own personal history novel, I am so impressed with the meaning of family inþuences on either side of my life. My mother and father were connected with music via show business which included a successful Broadway show at the Winter Garden in NYC along with 42 years of vaudeville for my mother. As I turn the clock ahead, I'm surrounded by three children who are connected with jazz music in different areas. My eldest daughter Myno is a successful business executive who has never stopped her singing efforts because they are so proficient and entertaining. My son Duffy, in my mind, is the best big band drummer in the entire trade. His contributions were acknowledged while a member of the Count Basie Orchestra where the Count himself was on piano. He now has his own big band and has just completed a swing CD. He also spends a great deal of his amazing career all over Europe. My youngest daughter Jaijai is a "today" thinking Producer in regards to jazz documentaries of a number of jazz musicians now regarded as legends and live jazz events. At one time, some years back, she appeared in a vocal group with the Buddy Rich Big Band. I have a new member of my family known as my son-in-law David whose last name is Tayloe. He's a remarkable singer and I'd truly enjoy hearing him perform for the world of music listeners. What I do enjoy is that we're close friends who love the hot tub. Who could forget our latest addition, six year old Chloe Zae, she's a Jackson through and through. All in all, the Jackson story continues on 'n on giving their utmost all. The term invest in history is their theme song. Would one say that I'm a proud "funky papa?"
My life has been totally embraced with my own conception of humor, writing and lastly my latest need is to create funny envelopes along with postcards. All of my friends have told me that they save every one of them. Outside of that, I'm what one would call Mr. Straight. My daughter Myno has sold me on riding a new jazz wave...into the telecommunications industry...I have endorsed a company called The Free Network, Myno is the San Diego leader and has aroused the interest of many jazz afficianados to jump on the bandwagon to save money and make money all for free. (This is her way of financing her dream project which is to raise money to do a CD with ME!) Click on Myno's hyperlink below to find out how she sold me on this very innovative idea. Her E-Mail address is: MynoJacksn@aol.com
Myno Jackson
Chubby Jackson
For more information on some of the mentioned artists in the interview, please click on any of the names below:
Duffy Jackson is also available for clinics and concerts and can be contacted at duffjacksn@aol.com.
Recordings by Chubby Jackson, as sideman or leader can be ordered via Amazon.com by clicking on the titles below.