A CONSULTATION WITH THE BRAIN SURGEONS

Interview by DJ Johnson - appeared in Cosmik Debris

Growing up a "rocker" in the 70s, you had a lot of choices to make. Would you choose to follow the Grand Funk Railroad path of pre-grunge lifestyle? Would you put on some tinted shades and do the T-Rex stumble as you tripped on window-pane? Or were you "heavy?" Being "heavy" meant you probably had the complete catalogs of two particular bands--Black Sabbath and Blue Oyster Cult. Sabbath was heavy by means of pummeling bass and buzzsaw guitar. Cult was heavy by means of attitude. They could freeze you just as easily with a ballad as they could with a rocker. One of the wags at Rolling Stone once said, and I'm paraphrasing here, that Blue Oyster Cult played with an attitude that suggested they'd just as soon suck your blood as perform for you.

Albert Bouchard occupied the drum throne for all the years that matter in BOC's history. He left the band in 1982 and he has remained very active in the east coast music scene. Deborah Frost played drums with Flaming Youth, one of the prototype "riot grrl" bands. She is also a respected rock critic. Al and Deborah met, married and formed a band. The Brain Surgeons pick up where Blue Oyster Cult left off (but don't tell the guys in BOC that they "left off..." they don't know yet), painting soundscapes that are alternately dark and liberating and light and frightening. Frost's amazing vocal range and her emotional delivery, along with Bouchard's technically brilliant drumming and the skills of their bandmates, combine to make The Brain Surgeons one of the most powerful units on the scene today.

This discussion took place shortly after the release of their second album, "Trepanation."

Cosmik: Al, how many instruments do you play?

Al: On BOC albums I played guitar, drums, percussion, vocals and harmonica. On The Brain Surgeons records I played all of the above plus saxophone, Jaminator, Microjammer, the Legendary Albertron, slide, ebow and keyboards.

Cosmik: Was that you playing the killer harp solo on "Dr. Music?"

Al: No that was Mickey Raphael who is Willie Nelson's harmonica player.

Cosmik: Have drums always been your number one, or did you end up Blue Oyster Cult's drummer by circumstance?

Al: Drums give the most joy when I play them. I started as the piano player in my first band but quickly switched to drums when the opportunity arose. By the time I got around to BOC I didn't consider any other instrument.

Cosmik: You put BOC together, didn't you?

Al: BOC was not "put together." The band was an evolution from several bands that I formed with Don Roeser when we met at Clarkson University.

Cosmik: Was the lineup the same from day one?

Al: No. Fallen by the wayside were the guys from Soft White Underbelly: Les Braunstein-singer, Richard Meltzer-singer, Jeff Richards-singer/sax, Jeff Latham-organ/guitar, Jackson Browne-singer, John Weisenthal-guitar, Andy Winters-bass. There were a few groups before Soft White Underbelly, too.

Cosmik: Jackson Browne?

Al: Yes, THE Jackson Browne. We were a blues band back then and not really very hard. We did only his material but I did some wild arrangements of some of his early tunes.

Cosmik: I'm having trouble picturing this...How was he as a hard rock singer?

Al: His singing back then was not so great but he always wrote great songs.

Cosmik: How long did it take from first practice until first album?

Al: Soft White Underbelly was formed in fall 1967 and made two albums for Elektra. The first was never finished in 1969 and the second never released in 70. The we starved for another year and finally got a deal with Columbia and put out the first BOC album in early 72. So you could say it was four and a half years from first practice to first release.

Cosmik: The first three albums almost sound like a different band than everything from "Agents Of Fortune" forward. Was there a shift in philosophy or maybe different influences like Patti Smith in the studio?

Al: We were writing with Patti Smith from day one . . . Baby Ice Dog, Career of Evil . . . so that was not a factor in our direction shift. But shift we did and it was quite conscious. We had discussed it as early as before the On Your Feet Or On Your Knees album. The first three albums were an aural painting of hell, BOC's Inferno, if you will. We eventually got tired of that and wanted the songs to be more personal, more real. Later we drifted back to the dark stuff but the hell-theme seemed corny to us after awhile.

Cosmik: When did it start to feel corny? Cultosaurus Erectus? Fires Of Unknown Origin?

Al: No we got tired of it around the Agents era. When we went back to the dark stuff, around Cultosaurus, we resolved we were not going back to the bad old days.

Cosmik: Did you think that had anything to do with Michael Moorcock's sci-fi themes, or did you like that direction?

Al: Yes I think that we were looking for lyrics. Eric was a fan of his and sought him out.

Cosmik: There were other phases, of course, but if you split everything into "pre Agents" and "post Secret Treaties," which era did you enjoy most?

Al: Actually it was the time in between that I was the most creative. If you're not including the last two years (94-96) then the post Treaties-pre Agents period wins hands down.

Cosmik: Maybe my memory is shot here...Wouldn't On Your Feet Or On Your Knees be the only release between those two albums?

Al: Maybe I'm not exactly answering your question. You seem to be talking about albums and I'm talking about a time period. That was a fertile period for all of us in the band.

Cosmik: In the sense that every member of a band brings their influences to contribute to the overall sound of the group, which element of BOC's sound was your contribution?

Al: Because my taste is so eclectic I think that my part of the sound is hard to pin down. As far as my influences, I was greatly influenced by my parents who were very industrious and organized. They did a lot with very little so I guess my major contribution was to supercharge everybody's work ethic. I either wrote the songs, brought the songs to the group, finished off songs that they couldn't finish or suggested the ideas for the songs that they did write--so I guess an argument could be made that my major contribution was as a writer for the group. The songwriters I was most influenced by were Bacharach-David and Leiber-Stoller, the former for their harmonic originality and the latter for their rhythmic originality.

Cosmik: How much of that do you think carries over to The Brain Surgeons?

Al: Well, my role in The Brain Surgeons is similar. The main difference is that these guys are funkier, funnier, more cooperative and they can learn the songs much faster.

Cosmik: Expand on that for us. What are the strengths of your bandmates?

Al: Deborah's strength is the depth of her emotional range as a singer. Compared to her, most of the other singers I've worked with seem monotone. Billy Hilfiger's strength is rhythmic solidity, [the] chunky, manly way he plays guitar. Another strength of Billy's is that he is almost the opposite of Pete. Pete's most obvious forte is raw speed. He can sweep pick and shred with the best of 'em but what he really likes to do is play perverted, sick melody lines. Pete is one of the funniest humans I've ever met. He's actually put everyone in the band on the floor with some of his routines. David Hirschberg's strong point has more to do with his attitude. He is totally enthusiastic about anything we do. He really is like a little kid with a new toy. He's a jammin' fool and a great all around musician. He plays killer sax, also.

Cosmik: There are a few nods to BOC on the new Brain Surgeons album, the most obvious being the section from "Cities On Flame" that you played as "Night Of The 1,000 Guitars." You wrote "Cities On Flame." Is this a way of showing that that power came from you?

Al: That wasn't the idea at all. I just wanted The Brain Surgeons to stake a small claim on "Cities" that we could make our own. I hate the idea of being a cover band--or even worse, an oldies act!

Cosmik: Are you still friends with the rest of BOC? Do they come to your shows?

Al: Unfortunately no and they never have.

Cosmik: What do you remember as the best of times with them?

Al: The time when we were getting the material for the first album together was very exciting. Some of the stadium gigs later on were pretty awe inspiring. When we first got the lasers they were lots of fun. Sometimes before shows in the late 70s I used to sit in my room and do charcoal drawings and get into the idea of becoming an artist and those were good times. I got to meet and jam with some great musicians and those were times I'll never forget. Muddy Waters/Francis Clay(his drummer) Chuck Berry, Jimi Hendrix, Mahavishnu Orchestra, David Bowie, Bruce Springstein, Ramones, Ozzie, Iggy, Bob Seger, Charlie Daniels, Richie Havens. I looked up to these people at the time and most of them turned out to be pretty warm loving individuals when I met them.

Cosmik: If you had to pin it down, which of those jam sessions was the most exciting and memorable for you?

Al: If I had to pin it down I guess I'd vote for my first brush with the famous, the time we opened for Muddy Waters at the Third Annual Blues Bag at the Cafe Au GoGo in New York City. That was incredible to me.

Cosmik: Which albums are you the proudest of? And which specific tracks, too?

Al: They're all like my children and some I may favor more than others at times but I'm proud of all of them, except for maybe a couple that you'll have to pry harder to find out.

Cosmik: Alright, I'll pry. You already said you thought the later records had some corny material, and of course you were getting ready to bolt around the Fire Of Unknown Origin period...Am I getting warm?

Al: No, the song I most don't like is "You're Not The One" from Mirrors. That song was a little joke that wasn't supposed to be recorded. My only consolation is that it was about the producer, Tom Werman, who I was never very impressed with. I think he ruined the good stuff that was on that album too. Also, my leaving BOC came out of the blue as far as I was concerned. You might say it was a little surprise that my colleagues cooked up for me.

Cosmik: Check my memory on this. You were gone by the time Revolution By Night came out, correct?

Al: After putting everything I had into the production of Fire of Unknown Origin (which was the last successful BOC album - coincidence? I think not) my reward was to get sacked!

Cosmik: Were you around for the writing process for Revolution?

Al: I was working on Imaginos when they made that record. I was not involved in any aspect of it.

Cosmik: So you left the band in 1982. What did you do then?

Al: Imaginos for five years.

Cosmik: Deborah, you were a big league rock critic and as I recall you weren't into pulling punches. Now you're getting out there and fronting a hard rock band. Do you ever feel like the cop who gets sent to prison? Are the critics and the peers ever a touch hypercritical because of what you used to do?

Deborah: A lot of people seem to labor under the false impression that I'm a rock critic who suddenly decided to put down my pencil and pick up a guitar. The reality is that I played in bands long before I ever became a rock critic. It was sort of an accident that for a while my writing about music took precedence over my playing music-- but that was largely because I didn't really find the right collaborator until I began working with Albert. And rock is really a process of collaboration, no matter how talented the individuals are. Would Lennon have evolved without McCartney? Jagger without Richards? And so on.

Cosmik: I think a lot of people will be morbidly curious about this one... Did you ever write a slam-job review of Blue Oyster Cult?

Deborah: No. But I would never describe anything that I wrote, no matter how incompetently it might have been edited, as a "slam-job." I've written positive reviews and negative reviews and mixed reviews for countless publications. But I actually never wrote about BOC--I may have referred to them in some other context, though.

Cosmik: Do you plan to get back into writing anytime soon?

Deborah: I've never gotten out of writing. I just contributed two essays that I'm pretty happy with to a book Rolling Stone Press and Random House are publishing in February of '97. But I'm not interested writing about things that mean nothing except a paycheck to me or filling the spaces between ads, which is all most corporate mags require at the moment. Of course, the ads are getting even fewer, which says that the readers aren't as stupid as most of the editors of these glossy pieces of crap.

Cosmik: How did the two of you meet?

Deborah: Helen Wheels, who co-wrote Blue Oyster Cult songs like "Tattoo Vampire," and "Sinful Love" with Albert, and "Nosferatu" and "Celestial the Queen" with Albert's brother, Joe, introduced us. It's really funny, because when I was in Flaming Youth, Helen hung out with couple of the other girls and was interested in having us be her back-up band. I said, "We are NOT back-up musicians!" and was so insulted that I refused to even discuss it with her. 20 years later, we both found ourselves into a different kind of heavy metal at the same body building gym and got to be good friends. She told Albert she knew someone he'd really hit it off with--and I think we've all been surprised ever since at how right she was!

Cosmik: You played drums with Flaming Youth. Do you ever get the urge to get on the kit with Brain Surgeons?

Deborah: Well, I occasionally do. But only because Albert makes me!

Cosmik: Do you find it difficult to balance rock and roll and parenthood?

Deborah: I think that we probably share the same problems as any other working parents. But I think that children, as proud as we are of them, are really a very personal topic--and should probably stay off the record. But I'm sure that they have the same deal with us as any other kids have with their parents-- you know, that eventually the truth will be revealed that somehow they were really dropped off here by mistake by Martians.

Cosmik: Wow...I thought that was just me. Okay, then, let's talk about the new album. First of all, what does the title, "Trepanation," mean?

Deborah: It's a rather primitive operation in which a hole is drilled in the skull. The idea is to relieve pressure on the brain. There's actually some kind of society in England-- people who want to make trepanations available on demand to the public. We thought it was appropriate.

Cosmik: You're both listed as producers. Was that as difficult as it sounds? How hard is it to compromise on those occasions when you're pretty sure your way is right and the other one has the wrong idea?

Deborah: Actually, we fight a lot more about simple every day things--like who's gonna take out the garbage--than aesthetic issues. After a couple hearings, what makes it sonically--even if the idea originally seemed pretty out there to either one of us--is pretty obvious. Who's gonna be in charge of dinner, on the other hand, is really something to fight about!

Cosmik: Who's responsible for the huge sound on "Stones In My Passway?" It seems like building that kind of vast soundscape is a lost art now.

Al: From 1988 to 1992 I produced a number of recordings for other artists, Head Up, Maria ExCommunikata, Kablamachunk! etc. During that period I worked with a talented young audio engineer named Paul Special. When I started recording The Brain Surgeons I tried to get Paul involved in the project but he was always too busy. When we were doing Trepanation I sent him a cassette of the rough mixes and he faxed me instructions on how he would mix each song. All the mixing moves on "Stones In My Passway" were his ideas that I used. I'm happy to say that he is very involved in the new Brain Surgeons album, currently under construction, also.

Cosmik: How hard was it to translate what he wrote in the fax into an actual sound? Was he real specific with EQ's and fader levels and everything else?

Al: Paul was specific as far as he could be. He'd never worked on my board at that point so it was like "make the drums clean and shiny with a touch of reverb. Use any one of Robert Plant's solo albums as a model."

Cosmik: "Stones In My Passway" is one of Robert Johnson's lesser known tunes. Is that one of the reasons you chose it?

Al: Well, yes, that's part of the reason. I bought the Robert Johnson box set and I set about learning a bunch of the songs. That one struck me as being typical of the quirky vibe that Johnson produced that nobody else has been able to recreate so I thought I'd give it a try. The lyric reminds me of a reoccurring nightmare I had as a child.

Cosmik: Wouldn't that make it kind of uncomfortable to do?

Al: Yes, but it also gave it an edge. I look at it as exorcism.

Cosmik: The instrument that starts that one off sounds like it might be a piano with the string being plucked. Go ahead . . . how far off am I?

Al: That is the Legendary Albertron which is an instrument I made myself out of 2x4s, 1" pipe, and old guitar parts. I made it after I saw a guy named Glen Brancca play at St. Mark's church in the village in 1983. It's played by striking with chopsticks and has sixteen strings tuned to different chords. It's sort of like a electric hammer dulcimer.

Cosmik: It has a great sound! Will it be used on the new album?

Al: Maybe if it sounds good on any of the songs. Actually we've finally recorded the song I made it for so I think I should use it on that.

Cosmik: Another one with a huge sound is "A Kiss Is A Promise." Your brother turned in a nice mandolin part on that one, too. Do you get together with Joe and jam very often?

Al: Yes we play on many occasions outside of The Brain Surgeons and he has come to six of our gigs and usually sits in with us for at least a couple songs, sometimes the whole set..

Cosmik: I thought the lyric in that song was pretty chilling. Was that a true story?

Deborah: I don't sing anything that does not resonate with some kind of emotional truth for me.

Cosmik: Were you playing "Ramblin' Rose" live before you ever recorded it? I ask because the energy and the flow is like a live song.

Deborah: I was as much an MC5 fan as Albert, and if he hadn't already done "Kick Out the Jams" with his old band, I probably woulda insisted on covering it. Albert and I used to play this together in the living room all the time. And when Fred Smith died, we were supposed to play CBGB like the next night, and although I woulda liked to do one of his original tunes to honor him the way I simply felt compelled to, I think the recording of this showed him at his finest frenzy. And we could teach it to the band at sound check. And then we recorded it, boom boom boom, maybe a week later. So you're right, it does have that genuine live feel. But more important, we hope it captures the heartfelt spirit that was intended-- that of a tribute to Fred Smith. And God bless Wayne Kramer. 'Cause irregardless of the tensions between them, which were probably no different than those that tear apart every band, he's still very much alive and kickin' out the jams. And more power to him.

Cosmik: Is "Ramblin' Rose" one of your more popular tunes? That little stutter is pretty sexy.

Deborah: Thanks. We don't do it as much as we should live-- maybe because we just haven't found the right place for it yet. But I think what's interesting about what we do is each listener's personal response. Everyone has his or her own favorite tune-- and they're not necessarily mine! But it's usually pretty interesting. Can't wait to hear your take on the album we're recording now. Some of these tunes are really different!

Cosmik: That brings me to my personal favorite track, "My Civilization." A pretty dark view of modern society. The way the vocals are layered reminded me a little of "Dominance and Submission."

Al: I had never thought of that until you asked the question. Now that you mention it it does have that trade-off feel to it. Really I'm just making songs that we all can have a little solo spot to do our thing in. I want to utilize the different personalities.

Cosmik: Who's doing what in the chorus section?

Al: Pete does the smooth harmonies, I do the 'Gimme Nothins' and Deborah does the wisecracks in-between.

Cosmik: "Shakespeare in cyberspace - free as a feather - animating emergency for your dining displeasure." If you don't find it too strange talking about your lyrics, what does this one mean?

Deborah: Actually, it's one of the more personal lyrics on the album, and it probably holds much more significance, not to mention genuine amusement, for Albert and myself than for anyone else. But for your purposes, let's just say it means exactly what you think it does.

Cosmik: Aw, don't do that to me. I have an overactive imagination and this song scares me as it is, which is probably why I love it. I hear it as a verbal spanking for a corrupt society. Is it really that simple?

Deborah: Well, to paraphrase our friends in the Canadian band Spackle, let your imagination do the spanking.

Cosmik: Question is, does it play in Poughkeepsie?

Deborah: Sure, to quote my friend Robert Plant, as long as they're not spanking while spilling their vichysoisse.

Cosmik: I read a review of your first album in which the writer pointed out that your music FEELS like classic rock in the best sense of the word. A lot of people would buy it for that reason while some people would see it as a liability. How do you feel about that kind of reaction against classic rock?

Deborah: The real problem is that classic rock is an oxymoron. As for people who won't buy it--actually, I'm really more concerned with people listening to it--if anyone's got a problem with labels, then he or she's a different kind of moron. Labels are something to stick on designer jeans--not that my Tommy Hilfigers ain't the comfiest things I've ever worn. But labels have nothing to do with music. They're a marketing device for people who, from the record company standpoint, are too stupid and/or tone deaf and tasteless to have any real convictions or too lazy to do any real work. And the same goes for the consumers who are dumb enough to fall for 'em. Would you have listened to the Rolling Stones if you were so concerned about the label? Or the Beatles? James Brown didn't need a label. Neither did Aretha. Or Brian Wilson. They just opened their mouths. All you had to do was hear.

Cosmik: I always want to sneak a look at people's record collections. What do you both listen to for kicks? New and old.

Deborah: Honey, you couldn't sneak anything at our record collection-- it covers walls. We have a lot of weird things for a lot of even weirder reasons. Depending on our moods, we listen to classical, rap, jazz. But it depends on our moods. Of course, what happens in pop music is that after you've been doing it for a long time, even when you hear something that's pretty clever, you know exactly where it came from. You appreciate the craftsmanship, but it's hard to be knocked out by the utter originality. There aren't too many brand new people who totally amaze me. I think the most innovative developments are probably happening on the urban front--I love that cover of Roberta Flack's "Killing Me Softly." Annie Lennox's cover of "Train in Vain" was a great piece of work. I wish she had some new original tunes that were as good as those covers. For old stuff, I might listen to Aretha. Or Al Green. Otis Redding. This is the music I really love. But most rock stuff, I've heard it so much, I don't necessarily have to put it on the record player, I can hear it in my head. You can't imagine how many times I listened to certain records when I was a kid--over and over and over. But it depends on my mood. Right now, we're working so much on our new record, that when the tracks aren't blaring, I just want silence. But it changes from day to day.

Cosmik: Is there a tour in the works?

Deborah: We're playing all over the place. Our dates are usually posted on the Brain Surgeons web page or the BOC-L discussion group.

Cosmik: What's next? Do you already have material for the third album?

Al: We have recorded 17 basic tracks for a new album of which we'll pick the best ones and finish them off by the summer.

Cosmik: I have no excuse for asking this, but after seeing BOC six times in the 70s and early 80s I've just got to know...Do you still have the Godzilla mask?

Al: No, Rick Downey lost it! [Ed.Note: Downey replaced Bouchard in BOC]

Cosmik: Is there some irony in there somewhere, ya think?

Al: Of course, it's perfect.

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